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Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

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Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#481

Post by _heimdall »

mschild wrote: post #427
_heimdall wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? And no this is not an attempt to in anyway belittle what Nazi German did during WWII. Assuming the employee you are referring to has never been engaged in such acts, though, that feels like a very slippery slope.

Part of being a Nazi means the sincere believe that the Aryan race is superior to all others and that eradicating them is a sensible goal. Thats not a political view. Its one of racism and finding genocide acceptable. I would sincerely hope that any sensible person would refuse to hire someone like this.

I can't say that I have seen any party documents floating around, but I'll take your word for it here. A person having those views or beliefs still isn't a crime, acting on them is.

A person in a workplace can have whatever views they want. Holding a view in no way prevents them from being able to do the work well. Its a different story if they cause a problem at work, but that is viewpoint agnostic - anyone starting political fights or worse at work is a problem.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#482

Post by _heimdall »

sneak wrote: post #457
_heimdall wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? And no this is not an attempt to in anyway belittle what Nazi German did during WWII. Assuming the employee you are referring to has never been engaged in such acts, though, that feels like a very slippery slope.

Yes. Discrimination in hiring with regard to personal viewpoints (ie adult decisions, not built-in traits) is one of the best ways we have to shape society for the better. As private entities, we have freedom of association - including freedom to shun certain groups. Use it!

Would you say the same for other types of discrimination?

And how can you so clearly differentiate between what is and is not an adult decision vs a built-in trait?

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#483

Post by ldoughty »

qmr wrote: post #426
godelski wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, remember that time that Cloudflare didn't take down a Nazi website because they didn't want to be arbiters of the internet but then everyone accused Cloudflare of supporting Neo Nazis. That this led to boycotts so they ended up taking down the site and wrote a blog post being like "fine, but this is dumb" That didn't really have to do with the law. You could segue it was a free market action. Though there were…

Not a fan of XYZ service deciding what you can or can not say / host online. Freedom of speech is not about protecting speech you find agreeable.

Businesses are not expected to protect your freedom of speech. If you want to say stuff that no one wants to print, you can't sue a business for not printing it.

The government can't stop you from requesting a permit and saying it on public lands, though... And back when telecoms were common carriers, you could have done such from your home Internet, now you can only do it from your voice line.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#484

Post by HumanOstrich »

dotancohen wrote: post #477
sneak wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Discrimination in hiring with regard to personal viewpoints (ie adult decisions, not built-in traits) is one of the best ways we have to shape society for the better. As private entities, we have freedom of association - including freedom to shun certain groups. Use it!

> ie adult decisions, not built-in traits What if my neighbor was born gay (can't help it), but I just decide that I want to try gay this week? Is it fine to discriminate against me, but not him? I made an adult choice this week.

ಠ_ಠ

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#485

Post by estsauver »

egorfine wrote: post #451
chipgap98 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this not a problem with the law rather than a problem with Cloudflare?

It is a forbidden rule of discussion to refer to Hitler and Nazis but I still want to point out that holocaust was fully legal.

So, interestingly, the places that actually did the worst in the Holocaust were generally the places where there were the least legal structures--even though you would expect it to be worst for Jews in Germany, it was often Poland and other states that had all legal structures and civil institutions destroyed who had it the worst.

https://www.amazon.nl/Black-Earth-Holocaust-History-Warning/...

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#486

Post by close04 »

DoctorOW wrote: post #460
_heimdall wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? And no this is not an attempt to in anyway belittle what Nazi German did during WWII. Assuming the employee you are referring to has never been engaged in such acts, though, that feels like a very slippery slope.

> Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day (or on a Zoom call or whatever) and expect something productive to happen? Well, no. It's a ticking timebomb. If you have an organization with multiple employees, they'll have to be people who can work together. So as a workplace, you need to either rid your empl…

> Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day

Today's Nazis have more diversified targets for discrimination. Concentrated antisemitism was a side effect of the personal issues of the most famous Nazi exponent in history, but they're more about racial supremacy. Today they might be Islamophobic more then antisemitic.

To answer to your question, their thoughts and views don't matter in the office, their behavior does. You can deeply dislike a colleague for various other reasons too but the effect is the same. I don't want to be fired because I unilaterally hate, or even love, my colleague. As long as I don't act on it, that is.

I know people working together in the same office where one's grandfather was in the Nazi military guarding one camp, the other's was a civilian killed in that camp. Whatever their deep feelings, they mind their job as expected.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#487

Post by 4ggr0 »

lan321 wrote: post #476
DoctorOW wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day (or on a Zoom call or whatever) and expect something productive to happen? Well, no. It's a ticking timebomb. If you have an organization with multiple employees, they'll have to be people who can work together. So as a workplace, you need to either rid your empl…

If they can be professional, yeah? I have diverse private interests that don't really get mixed with work. Don't see why my political interests should. I've worked with people I don't personally like. It's more tiring since there's less chit chat but the work gets done all the same.

your private interests probably don't include the wish for your co-workers to be harmed, killed or at least treated like a lesser being.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#488

Post by hobs »

_heimdall wrote: post #481
mschild wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of being a Nazi means the sincere believe that the Aryan race is superior to all others and that eradicating them is a sensible goal. Thats not a political view. Its one of racism and finding genocide acceptable. I would sincerely hope that any sensible person would refuse to hire someone like this.

I can't say that I have seen any party documents floating around, but I'll take your word for it here. A person having those views or beliefs still isn't a crime, acting on them is. A person in a workplace can have whatever views they want. Holding a view in no way prevents them from being able to do the work well. Its a different story if they cause a problem at work, but that is viewpoint agnostic - anyone starting…

Not hiring people who wish the majority of your employees death is a super low bar, you should try to make sure you can get over it.

"How many people in the office do you view as vile subhumans who should be purged from the world because of how they were born?"

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#489

Post by mc32 »

ldoughty wrote: post #483
qmr wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fan of XYZ service deciding what you can or can not say / host online. Freedom of speech is not about protecting speech you find agreeable.

Businesses are not expected to protect your freedom of speech. If you want to say stuff that no one wants to print, you can't sue a business for not printing it. The government can't stop you from requesting a permit and saying it on public lands, though... And back when telecoms were common carriers, you could have done such from your home Internet, now you can only do it from your voice line.

Right but ISPs and services like CF should be neutral parties just like the Cisco routers and Corning fiber. They should not be arbiters of what’s currently acceptable. Thats not to say they are not subject to jurisdictional law but rather they should not be their own law imposing their views.

Now of course if they want to provide you the user with tools to filter or hide things you disagree with out, by all means.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#490

Post by thedelanyo »

egorfine wrote: post #219
stingraycharles wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, the internet was worse without Cloudflare, so as long as they provide a good service for their customers, I’m fine with it. This is one of those. Google is in a perfect position to compete but they don’t, so it’s not like Cloudflare is a monopoly or something. At least they’re not selling ads using your data.

> the internet was worse without Cloudflare It had much more freedom. Currently it's up to Cloudflare to decide whether you will read that article or not. Tomorrow some stupid law will mandate certain ideas to be hidden from children[1] and Cloudflare will happily comply. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

What's stopping you from creating a competitive feature?
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