Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Representative democracy doesn't mean that every possible policy could be enacted by some realistic configuration of elected representatives, even if any particular policy is supported by a majority of the electorate. that is only true if you flatten your system to two parties.
> that is only true if you flatten your system to two parties. Again with the "you". "We" did not flatten anything into anything; we were born into an unfair and broken system that we have no power to change.
Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
481–490 of 891 posts
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#482OP, some context from the other side might be helpful. Yes, there are fines for American companies if they do business with Iranians. That's how sanctions work as I'm sure you're aware. But the story doesn't stop there. If an American finds out they are transacting with a sanctioned individual, or citizens of a sanctioned country like Iran or North Korea, the stakes go up: $1M USD fine and up to 20 years in federal p…
> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…
> you
> you
> you
You don’t understand what the word “you” means.
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#483Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…
Who is "you"? The US government doesn't reflect the majority of Americans, at all. It reflects capital interests - which the majority of Americans are not. Majority of Americans are laborers.
Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like a generic "you", not talking about you specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#484Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would Russia perhaps have already conquered Ukraine without sanctions? Would Iran have destroyed Israel by now without sanctions? Would NK have become a nuclear power much earlier, and have a huge stockpile of nuclear weapons today, were it not for sanctions? I don't know the answers to those questions, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was "yes".
Russia lost (in a real sense), when their blitzkrieg of Kiev failed. From that point on, it’s just how much they turn the crank on the meat grinder that is trench warfare. It’s the nature of the bet that is inherent in Blitzkrieg. Ukraine/Russia is about who is going to lose more after that, not who can win. No one can win anymore. Sanctions or lack thereof definitely impacts quality of life, but Putin put everything…
The USSR fell because its economic model didn't work and was a society steered by corrupt principles. Jeans and rock and roll "envy" was just a symptom. After having seen the effect of communism/russianism on post-soviet countries I'd rather take a nuclear bomb, it's better in the long term.
Sanctions work but it depends what you are min-maxing because obviously some sanctions may hurt your own country/block.
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#485Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…
Sanctions have a theoretical basis behind them. In the Western Political Philosophical Canon, leaders and elites are expected to strive for the Common Good. From that perspective, sanctions aren’t meant as “torture for fun,” (as you put it) but as a way of creating pressure so governments change their behavior without having to resort to war. They’re basically a tool to raise the cost of bad actions and make it more…
>Sanctions have a theoretical basis behind them. In the Western Political Philosophical Canon, leaders and elites are expected to strive for the Common Good.
I would say it is a bit more realpolitik than that. An "Evil" leader doesn't care about the common good, but all leaders need subordinates to carry out their orders, security forces to carry out their rules, etc. Sanctions are meant to put pressure on all those people. So either A; the leader changes their actions so as not to risk losing the people that turn their will into action, or B; those subordinates put someone else in charge that will play ball.
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#486Earlier quoted context omitted.
Different situation though, Ukraine did not attack Russia. Hamas did attack Israel from inside Palestine without any authorities in Palestine doing anything against it.
In addition, Hamas was democratically elected and the incursion into Israel saw popular support from the people of Gaza. They had the option of not going to war, as did Iran.
In addition, what do you think happens when you do and continue doing what Israel has been doing to Palestine for many, many decades? People are just going to be OK with that? History did not start when Hamas attacked Israel as you would like to believe so. Israel had the option of not breeding violence for decades, too. You should brush up a bit on history and look for cause and effect. :P
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#487Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sanctions diminish a counties capacity to wage war.
No. Countries just will take money from their people. It diminishes people capacity to survive.
Both are true. Less access to materials, components, IP, and skilled labor all diminish a country's war fighting ability. There aren't unlimited funds you can take from citizens, and money you do take has effects on your labor force and talent pool.
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#488Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pray tell how people in the US can control specifics of its foreign policy.
This is why the democracy-vs-dictatorship point is not one I think is worth arguing. Because while you can technically vote for president, senate, congress who have some say over that on your behalf, you still don't really decide anything. I think however you'd both be in agreement about the broad thrust of the argument - that this is a slightly daft thing to lay at the feet of your average Iranian, who will already…
>Because while you can technically vote for president, senate, congress who have some say over that on your behalf, you still don't really decide anything.
Even if there was a referendum in the US on whether to drone strike alleged drug traffickers or whatever, it's still a stretch to blame all Americans (with "your" language), because it's there's still a good chance that a given American visitor didn't actually vote for it.
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#489Earlier quoted context omitted.
> that is only true if you flatten your system to two parties. Again with the "you". "We" did not flatten anything into anything; we were born into an unfair and broken system that we have no power to change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you
Huh? This is a completely different thing.
Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';
#490Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…
> with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. I dont't know what is this based on, but no, sanctions are needed to stop the other party from benefitting from economic activity, not to punish.
Sounds like punishment to me.