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They Thought They Were Free (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#481

Post by shermantanktop »

permo-w wrote: post #343
shermantanktop wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History? Geography? Specific laws? Particular parties in power? There are a lot of things to look at alongside mystical notions of a collective national character of a people, especially now that most of these countries have significant immigration and exposure to ideas from elsewhere.

all of the things you listed make up or result from national character. besides some short interludes, for example, Japan has had the same party in power since 1955. it's a weird thing to deny the existence of. different nations act differently. it's not heresy to make generalisations, particularly in the age of nationalism when many/most people actively try to set and follow their country's norms

Isn’t that a thing called culture? National character could be another word for it, except “nation” is a modern concept and is highly volatile. Check out what’s happened to the borders of Germany over the last few hundred years.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#482

Post by mindslight »

api wrote: post #185
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also remind the short of memory that during covid, the states with the most draconian restrictions were mostly left-leaning, and many were loathe to give up that control. Control of the people comes from all sides. The end result is the same, but the methods are different, intended to make people happy to be controlled.

That mostly mapped to population density, which maps to blue states because the main divide is urban vs rural. More intense pandemic measures make more sense where density is higher. But did we even have any true lockdowns in the US? Maybe in some cities, but we had nothing close to China or even Australia. Were there any places in the US with actual curfews where you were not allowed to leave, or anything like that?…

What I recall from looking into this is that under half of the states had stay at home orders with the force of law. My own perspective was similar to yours - governor issued a "stay at home order" that when you read the details it was really just a strongly worded suggestion. Of course my state was still often listed in national summaries as if the order was mandatory.

But there does seem to be states where such orders were legally mandatory. Were they enforced? Would they survive court scrutiny if someone was arrested for say walking down the sidewalk in open air? Did they have massive escape hatches (eg caring for family members) ? No idea.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#483

Post by therealdrag0 »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #207
herval wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has always been a very moralistic country. From banning alcohol and burning witches to its long struggle to accept differences (in skin color, gender or even the definition of freedom). “Cancel culture” is part of America since its foundation. It’s a moral tug of war. It’s a different thing altogether to have the government itself weaponize “cancel culture”, however. As much as right wing people like to scream…

> little evidence of the same level of systemic abuse You not looking for it doesn't mean "little evidence." It's well documented that the previous administration pressured social media to silence views it didn't like, as well as instances of debanking conservative organizations. That's not to say this administration doesn't throw its weight around, too, but to think it's only one side make you complicit in the probl…

Maybe there’s better examples, but last time I checked some debunking examples they were well explained, unlike how political agitators complained about it. It was basically thinking they could break laws and get away with it complaining.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#484

Post by dluan »

Reading this in China, it's hard not to see the similarities with the cultural revolution, but there seems to be a big difference with how the trauma lasted among those who survived. At least in China, the primary shared memory is that everyone was a common victim, that the cultural revolution was this brutal madness and frenzied state that was exacted on everybody, even if you were also a participant and threw some tomatoes at a struggle session here or there. But in Germany, it's more of a feeling of mass cowardice and shame. That so many people "let" the events unfold, because they had an opportunity to stop it or prevent it from snowballing. I have a gut feeling that in 20 years, Americans will feel like latter.

But I also question that because out of the last 30 or so historical examples we have of fascism's rise, there's never been one instance of deposing it non-violently once it's been given power. Germany, France, Italy, Portugal's Estado Novo, Spain's Franco. I think the lone exception might be Finland's Lapua movement. So maybe there is nothing that could've actually been done. I don't know, these days I look around and I feel like it's inevitable.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#485

Post by southernplaces7 »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #328
mcfunley wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point, the thing that jumped out at me reading this book is how familiar the German characters are. People have loved to imagine that the Nazi era in Germany was so anomalous it could never happen again. But no, the Germans were just like us.

This is my problem with a lot of literature and movies. The Nazis are always unfathomably evil, when in reality, most of them were just people doing their jobs. I read Eichmann in Jerusalem recently, and the reality is that what Eichmann did was incredibly mundane for the most part. There is someone in ICE right now doing exactly what Eichmann was doing: Coordinating roundups of people made "illegal" by law, and then…

>Eichmann presents that he didn't like it at all, but really had no choice in the matter if he didn't want to be made a pariah or face severe personal repercussions

Which by the way was largely false, for both low and high-ranking Nazis. It was usually possible to slowly or even quickly distance yourself from directly committing atrocities (or coordinating them) and get fobbed off into some low-key administrative position without fearing anything like serious punishment. The Nazi machinery was harsh towards openly voiced disobedience and discontent, but surprisingly tolerant of a "weak stomach" or a lack of what their fanatics called moral fiber (being able to protect the race by butchering innocent others).

Christopher Browning in his book about Reserve Battalion 101, mentioned in the comment right above yours, emphasizes this point about a lack of severe punishment for not participating, repeatedly about the members of that death squad.

The ugly black magic of the Nazi system was specifically that it often made previously, otherwise ordinary people internally normalize mass murder into something they could do.

The above aside, image too the kind of empty shell of fundamental human morality you'd need to be to continue sending innocent people, including women and children to their deaths in gas chambers, just so you can avoid looking bad on the social scene around you.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#486

Post by I-M-S »

DrewADesign wrote: post #479
I-M-S wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but it goes the other way around as well - the Taliban had absolutely no way to infiltrate the ranks and do damage to the military operations from within.

Was that a significant problem during the civil war?

Excellent question. Perhaps someone knowledgeable on that subject can tell us more.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#487

Post by pas »

MrJohz wrote: post #333
simpaticoder wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, having lived in Germany for a couple of years recently, there is a perceptible national character. The best way to understand it is to ponder the difference between a drag race and a rally race - in one, success means going as fast as possible; in the other success means getting to navigation points within a window of error. Or, with beer: in America success is discovering a new beer with a different fla…

Eh, I think that's a bit overblown. In theory, Germans are famously methodical and precise, in practice the rail network is falling apart, a major bridge in my city recently collapsed due to lack of proper maintenance, and "made in Germany" is mainly an encouragement to buy local, rather than buying for quality. My experience of Germans, having lived among them for almost a decade, and having married one of them, is…

why things are falling apart? isn't it mostly good old Baumol's cost disease (relative productivity decreasing) coupled with the lack of economies of scale (even more productivity backsliding) coupled with spending priorities (services, aging population, "green" and climate change stuff) coupled with NIMBY issues (which again put a downward pressure on scale, and thus productivity)?

our built environment suffers from the fact that there's no Apple Autobahn, manufactured in China at Foxconn, using competitive cutting-edge tech shit in the most cost-efficient way?

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#489

Post by qcnguy »

anigbrowl wrote: post #477
qcnguy wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Taliban lost immediately and was suppressed indefinitely until the US decided to leave. It's a good demonstration of how well the US military can suppress even decentralized and suicidally fanatical movements for as long as it wants.

Suppressing them didn't cause them to stop fighting, though. In every guerrilla war the conventional army is nominally in charge, and generally never loses any sort of pitched battle. The whole military theory of guerilla warfare is to avoid shootouts in favor of hitting the enemy and running away.

No it didn't, but the US military isn't going to get bored of the US and leave.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#490

Post by rixed »

permo-w wrote: post #327
rixed wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless we disagree on the meaning of "national character", isn't that easy to come up with 100 other reasons to explain those economic/political differences?

what is your definition of "national character"?

That would be a trait of character that most inhabitants of a country acquire by education, mimetism or mere abituation, that distinguish them from inhabitants of most other countries; Like a taste for some kind of food or music, a respect (or lack thereof) for some social rules like the patience or reluctance to wait in line, etc. I don't believe this kind of trait can influence economics or politics in any significant measure.
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