Why are there so many rationalist cults? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#481

Post by djeastm » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:13 PM UTC

username332211 wrote: post #413

vehemenz wrote: post #344

I get the impression that these people desperately want to study philosophy but for some reason can't be bothered to get formal training because it would be too humbling for them. I call it "small fishbowl syndrome," but maybe there's a better term for it.

The reason why people can't be bothered to get formal training is that modern philosophy doesn't seem that useful. It was a while ago, but take the infamous story of the 2006 rape case in Duke University. If you check out coverage of that case, you get the impression every member of faculty that joined in the hysteria was from some humanities department, including philosophy. And quite a few of them refused to change…

Modern philosophy isn't useful because some philosophy faculty at Duke were wrong about a rape case? Is that the argument being made here?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#482

Post by p1esk » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:13 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #201

ctoth wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I immediately become suspicious of anyone who is very certain of something, especially if they derived it on their own. Are you certain about this?

All I know is that I know nothing.

How do you know?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#483

Post by doubleunplussed » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:24 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #384

On a recent Mindscape podcast Sean Carroll mentioned that rationalists are rational about everything except accusations that they're not being rational.

I mean you have to admit that that's a bit of a kafkatrap

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#484

Post by Animats » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:29 PM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

Many arguments arise over the valuation of future money. See "discount function" [1] At one extreme are the rational altruists, who rate that near 1.0, and the "drill, baby, drill" people, who are much closer to 0.

The discount function really should have a noise term, because predictions about the future are noisy, and the noise increases with the distance into the future. If you don't consider that, you solve the wrong problem. There's a classic Roman concern about running out of space for cemeteries. Running out of energy, or overpopulation, turned out to be problems where the projections assumed less noise than actually happened.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_function

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#485

Post by yubblegum » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:30 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #310

Many years ago I met Eliezer Yudkowsky. He handed me a pamphlet extolling the virtues of rationality. The whole thing came across as a joke, as a parody of evangelizing. We both laughed. I glanced at it once or twice and shoved it into a bookshelf. I wish I kept it, because I never thought so much would happen around him.

imo These people are promoted. You look at their backgrounds and there is nothing that justifies their perches. Eliezer Yudkowsky is (iirc) a Thiel baby, isn't he?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#486

Post by ivm » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:31 PM UTC

digbybk wrote: post #220

ivm wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of them are practicing Buddhist meditation though, same for the "personal growth" oriented meditation styles. Buddhist meditation exists only in the context of the Four Noble Truths and the rest of the Buddha's Dhamma. Throwing them away means it stops being Buddhist.

I disagree, but we'd be arguing semantics. In any case, the point still stands: you can just as easily argue that these rationalist offshoots aren't really Rationalist.

I'm not familiar enough with their definitions to argue about them, but meditations techniques predate Buddhism. In fact, the Buddha himself learned them from two teachers before developing his own path. Also, the style of meditation taught nowadays (accepting non-reactive awareness) is not how it's described in the Pali Canon.

This isn’t just a "must come from the Champagne region of France, otherwise it’s sparkling wine" bickering, but actual widespread misconceptions of what counts as Buddhism. Many ideas floating in Western discourse are basically German Romanticism wrapped in Orientalist packaging, not matching neither Theravada nor Mahayana teachings (for example, see the Fake Buddha Quotes project).

So the semantics are extremely important when it comes to spiritual matters. Flip one or two words and the whole metaphysical model goes in a completely different direction. Even translations add distortions, so there’s no room to be careless.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#487

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:36 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #399

dan_quixote wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former mechanical engineer, I visualize this phenomenon like a "tolerance stackup". Effectively meaning that for each part you add to the chain, you accumulate error. If you're not damn careful, your assembly of parts (or conclusions) will fail to measure up to expectations.

I saw an article recently that talked about stringing likely inferences together but ending up with an unreliable outcome because enough 0.9 probabilities one after the other lead to an unlikely conclusion. Edit: Couldn't find the article, but AI referenced Baysian "Chain of reasoning fallacy".

[deleted]

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#488

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:38 PM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

[deleted]

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#489

Post by quickthrowman » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:39 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #310

Many years ago I met Eliezer Yudkowsky. He handed me a pamphlet extolling the virtues of rationality. The whole thing came across as a joke, as a parody of evangelizing. We both laughed. I glanced at it once or twice and shoved it into a bookshelf. I wish I kept it, because I never thought so much would happen around him.

I only know Eliezer Yudkowsky from his Harry Potter fanfiction, most notably Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.

Is he known publicly for some other reason?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#490

Post by ImaCake » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 10:40 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #375

6177c40f wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, this article isn't calling rationalism a cult, it's about cults that have some sort of association with rationalism (social connection and/or ideology derived from rationalist concepts), e.g. the Zizians.

This article attempts to establish disjoint categories "good rationalist" and "cultist." Its authorship, and its appearance in the cope publication of the "please take us seriously" rationalist faction, speak volumes of how well it is likely to succeed in that project.

Not sure why you got down voted for this. The opening paragraph of the article reads as suspicious to the observant outsider:

>The rationalist community was drawn together by AI researcher Eliezer Yudkowsky’s blog post series The Sequences, a set of essays about how to think more rationally.

Anyone who had just read a lot about Scientology would read that and have alarm bells ringing.