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Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

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Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not money but inertia of very large systems. All these password changes cost money as well. If anything it's a market failure that insurance companies seem to have too little incentive to update their security requirements. This would likely be solved by reducing friction with both evaluating insurers in detail and switching between them.

It's also a sort of moral hazard problem. If you, the person in charge of these decisions, allow an incumbent policy - even a bad one - to stand, then if something goes wrong you can blame the policy. If you change the policy, though, then you're at risk of being held personally responsible if something goes wrong. Even if the change isn't related to the problem. It's not just cybersecurity. I have a family member wh…

"No-one ever got fired for buying IBM" etc.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#482
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only have to do that if you must validate a token, without having access to session data. I doubt most systems are like that, you can just use what you call "your actual token" and check if the session is still valid. Adding a second token is rarely needed unless you have disconnected systems that can't see session data.

Not having to start all my API handlers with a call to the DB to check token validity significantly improves speed for endpoints that don't need the SQL db for anything else, and reduces the load on my SQL db at the same time.

Does it actually improve speed though? The DB check is simply "does this key exist", it can be done in a memory database, it doesn't have to be the same DB as the rest of your data.

Validating a token requires running encryption level algorithms to check the signing signature, and those are not fast.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#483
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But getting someone's SSH keys and then running off and doing other things is a very normal part of any focused attack in which attackers use some foothold to start pivoting into your systems. Though, if someone gets that far, couldn't they also install a key logger on the users system? At that point - whether it's just password or a password enabled SSH key, anything the user does is all compromised regardless.

"Though, if someone gets that far, couldn't they also install a key logger on the users system?" There are a ton of situations where that is not the case. They may be using directory traversal from something else to read a key without even necessarily being on the system. They may be on the system at 1am local time, and want to get in and get their job done before the user is even there. They may be on a server somew…

I appreciate the additional insights, but the premise I'm pushing back on is whenever a SSH key is read, then the user account is by necessity compromised in order to do so. Given that level of a breach, there are myriad ways for an attacker to escalate privilege and exploit their access without worrying about a password on the SSH key. Namely, at that point, cracking the password on the SSH key is a tractable problem.

> They may be using directory traversal from something else to read a key without even necessarily being on the system.

At least on linux - to read the directory containing a SSH key requires the ability to also write to that directory, as the user. Therefore you can also write to '.bashrc' and all sorts of other places. I suspect Windows might have a larger attack surface, but nonetheless, a directory traversal that is able to read and write is also able to install a keylogger.

> They may be on a server somewhere where someone left a key they shouldn't have

Private key should never be transmitted over a network boundary. SSH key passwords can be bruteforced as well. Having a password on the SSH key, when the SSH key is somewhere it really should never have been, is closing the barn door after the horses have left.

> The attacker may have gotten enough of a secret to compromise some other secret store where the key is being held.

Again, getting access to the secret is enough to also have write access and be able to install a key logger. A password on the SSH key still does not help.

> They're probably on a system with user-level access only and that may not be enough to "just" install a keylogger

If a person has enough access to read a SSH key, they can also install a key logger for at least that user account. They are equivalent levels of compromise, a user account having its SSH key read is already compromised.

edit: addendum: There are certainly attacks that can only read the contents of a system, with root that can read the full system. It's just odd to think about, since at that rate the SSH keys being on a prod system is already such a big no-no. SSH keys really need to live exactly just on the personal devices of the people who own those keys - EG: it should never be the case that say a SQL injection attack that gains root level read permission over everything on a filesystem can then ever read SSH keys - cause those keys should never be on the remote system to begin with. Putting a password on private keys that are then copied to servers _is_ security theater; the keys ought to never be copied to a remote server to begin with.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#484
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frequent reauth only makes people figure out hacks to work around it. Passwords get written down, passwords end up in Google Docs, Arduinos with servos get attached to Yubikeys, SMS gets forwarded to e-mail, TOTP codes get sent over Wechat, the whole works

Because much of what passes as "security" is a bunch of theater. > SMS gets forwarded to e-mail, TOTP codes get sent over Wechat, Here we are deep into 2FA land. Where you have institutions blocking SMS/MMS to IP telephony because they want to capture real people (and this locks out rural customers). Using your cell phone was never a suitable 2nd factor and now it is evolving into a check to make sure you're not a ro…

Whether or not you can be compelled to unlock your phone doesn't really have anything to do with passkeys. If you can be compelled to unlock your phone, then whatever you have on your phone (including the stuff in your password manager/credential manager) is potentially up for grabs. In this threat modeling scenario there's nothing unique about a passkey vs. a password.

And if you're against using credential managers at all, because you only want to have the password stored in your brain and nowhere else.... then that creates different problems, namely it dramatically increases the odds that you will use the same password across multiple services, which is bad because then attackers can steal your password from one service and use it to login to a bunch of other services.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My preferred workflow as well, but now many websites are starting to do this thing where you have to enter only your username, hit next, and then the password input shows up; however, the username only input breaks my password manager from trying to autofill! Argh

HomeDepot’s is even crazier. You input just your email and hit Next. Then a button appears to “Send magic link” to login via that annoying method. And then there is a tiny text below: “Want to use a different login method? Wait 10s…9s…8s…”. Only after 10s are you able to select a tiny text link “Use Password” to unlock using the password field

FYI Home Depot supports passkeys which are a significantly better* sign-in user experience than magic links.

*faster + easier (fewer steps)

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#486
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trust this device" is the modern day elevator door close button.

I've found that it's only american elevator door close buttons that don't work. The rest of the world manages to keep them operational.

On US elevators there is a minimum open duration to accommodate the handicapped or disabled. The door close button can’t force the door closed any faster.

Then most set the auto-close duration equal to this minimum open duration and you get this appearance of buttons doing nothing.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#487
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help yourself to the system setting "Privacy & Security -> Allow accessories to connect". The sane default is "ask every time", and you probably want "ask for new accessories".

That stops the computer asking, but it doesn't stop the phone asking. Apple changed this a few years ago, because of a potential security venerability: https://imazing.com/blog/ios-backup-passcode-prompt

It's a known solvable problem though. Both devices can exchange public keys and every time they're connected they can validate those keys with each other.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#489
post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a sort of moral hazard problem. If you, the person in charge of these decisions, allow an incumbent policy - even a bad one - to stand, then if something goes wrong you can blame the policy. If you change the policy, though, then you're at risk of being held personally responsible if something goes wrong. Even if the change isn't related to the problem. It's not just cybersecurity. I have a family member wh…

"No-one ever got fired for buying IBM" etc.

I mean that was true about Boeing, right up until it wasn't.

Re: Frequent reauth doesn't make you more secure

#490

Forced password rotation and expiry seems the bigger problem; given that it causes people to get locked out so often, (e.g. if pw expires when on holiday), — often then requiring travelling to IT, or at least a few hours trying to get IT on the phone to reset, or chasing up colleagues who aren't locked out to get in touch with IT. Many (most?) companies still do it, despite it now not being recommended by NIST: > Ver…

I just had this argument with a state wide government website. I have to log in to this site maybe once per year to update contact information and update a few fields. Unfortunately, that site silently deactivates your account automatically every 90 days. So I'm forced to change the password literally every time I log into the dumb thing.

They refused to establish MFA or passkeys - and instead insist that "NIST is the minimum recommendation for cybersecurity... and we take cybersecurity very seriously... to ensure the safety and security of the citizens... therefore we will not change our policy on mandatory account lockouts or password change requirements."

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