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The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

lcamtuf.substack.com

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Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#481
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like telling a chemist that moles are a useless complication. They'll swear up and down how important they but have no reasons except that everyone in the field uses them so they must be important. Sometimes conventions live on past the original need they met and experts are blind to that because they're only experts in using the convention, not evaluating conventions. Moles might have made sense when we didn't…

> Moles might have made sense when we didn't even know atoms existed and perhaps dB are similar, though I wouldn't know about that one. Moles make sense because atoms exist.

Moles still work without knowing that atoms exist. The quantity being called "amount of substance" not "number of things" reflects that. However, they are still a redundant over-complicated legacy that doesn't need to exist.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#482
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moles might have made sense when we didn't even know atoms existed and perhaps dB are similar, though I wouldn't know about that one. Moles make sense because atoms exist.

Moles still work without knowing that atoms exist. The quantity being called "amount of substance" not "number of things" reflects that. However, they are still a redundant over-complicated legacy that doesn't need to exist.

Moles are used because they are useful abstraction. When you want to get from reaction equation to actual real word having some fixed weight is useful. It becomes useful to have fixed relatively usable quantity to work with.

They are relatively decent size for actually weighing out things.

And honestly mapping number of elementary particles directly to grams is not unreasonable. Even if because physics of world are tad weird there is still possibility for some sanity checks.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#483
post #480
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those cases where marketing is correct. Oh tell me, if your CPU processes 1 byte in 1 cycle, and it runs at 800 MHz, how many bytes does it process in 1 second? The answer is 800 million bytes, or 800 (real) megabytes. It cannot be 800 mebibytes. (Equal to 763 mebibytes.) Similarly, let's say we have a 1-bit Boolean attribute for each person in the world, and the world population is 8 062 000 000 billi…

> Oh tell me, if your CPU processes 1 byte in 1 cycle, and it runs at 800 MHz, how many bytes does it process in 1 second? An interesting metric, used by noone in the Universe except you for the sake of this discussion. But let's entertain this: if the actual CPU speed is 838,860,800Hz, how many bytes does it process in 1 second? > Similarly, let's say we have a 1-bit Boolean attribute for each person in the world I…

> An interesting metric, used by noone in the Universe except you for the sake of this discussion.

The speed of cryptographic function such as ciphers and hashes are quoted in cycles per byte. This is because in the pure numeric code, without worrying about memory transfer speed, the speed of the crypto algorithm is directly proportional to the CPU clock speed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encryption_software#Performanc... . Random example: https://bench.cr.yp.to/results-hash/amd64-hertz.html

> if the actual CPU speed is 838,860,800Hz, how many bytes does it process in 1 second?

If the CPU is 800 MiHz (never heard of that term, lol), then it processes 800 MiB in 1 second. Stated differently, 839 MHz --> 839 MB.

> Remarkable circular reasoning

No, I'm pointed out that the industry has already splintered into two. Your "16 GB" of RAM is a different measure than "16 GB" of HDD or SSD.

> It is thus not a part of metric system so SI has zero business regulating information storage.

If a byte is not derived from fundamental SI units, then it should not take on SI prefixes.

Otherwise, if it takes on prefixes, it should respect the SI definition and not abusively have its own contradictory definition.

> On the other hand you can't buy a computer that does not address memory in anything other than powers of two.

So what? I can use that same logic to argue that all RAM sizes should be quoted in base-2, so I'm buying 1_0000_0000_0000_0000 (base-2) bytes of RAM, right? Clearly base-10 notation is a poor fit, so why not go all the way to base-2?

> Nor you could ever buy a 1000 million bytes RAM chip

It is certainly feasible. You can just cut a bunch of rows at the end. I know how binary decoder gates work.

Also, if you have a computer and put in a 4 GiB stick of RAM and a 2 GiB stick, then you have 6 GiB of addressable memory, which is clearly not a power of 2.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#484
post #473
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As compared to to what? where C and K are 273.15 apart. But joking aside, While you do point out some of the worst offences, 5280 foot in mile is a special sort of stupid. I do wish we would have metriced around base 12 like a lot of the old measurements were instead of base 10. Base 10 sort sucks for quantities. I mean, we are all used to it and it works well enough, and having a proper base system is far far better…

> I do wish we would have metriced around base 12 Please clarify what you mean by this. Let me call your system altmetric for clarity. Surely, you want altmetric to use prefixes that are powers of 12 - okay, fair enough. I see the analogy with the fact that 1 foot = 12 inches, and how base-60 is used in minutes and seconds (also arcminutes and arcseconds). (But why no thirds and fourths?) But do you want altmetric to…

This mythical altMetric utopia requires everyone to actually count in base C (to use dc notation) as well. the main advantage is that thirds and quarters(the useful fractions) tend toward whole numbers. In base 10 all you get are halfs and fifths(and nobody wants to use fifths)

everything would still be metric, the calculations would be as simple, every one would learn their baseC times tables and how to do baseC long division.

$3000 / $(68.49/share) = 54.59B1 shares 54 shares = total cost of $2B88.B6 take your remaining 33.07 and have a nice lunch

1000 Cgrams(1728Agrams) = 1kiloCgram 1000kiloCgrams = 1 Cton

but going smaller a third of a Cgram is 0.4 Cgrams a quarter is 0.3 Cgrams

Does this actually makes any ones life better... Probably not. but it has every advantage of using baseA and the minor(very minor) advantage that thirds and quarters are easier.

But this assumes that baseC won over baseA 1500 years ago, and if there is one truly global success story it is baseA, many languages, cultures, writing systems, but everyone(statisticly) uses baseA with arabic style numbers

footnote: I am using the slightly obnoxious prose of using baseA and baseC to avoid the confusing ambiguity that saying base 10 in base twelve means there are twelve numbers in a digit(where the word digit, coming from the way we count on fingers would also mean twelve.)

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#485
post #483
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh tell me, if your CPU processes 1 byte in 1 cycle, and it runs at 800 MHz, how many bytes does it process in 1 second? An interesting metric, used by noone in the Universe except you for the sake of this discussion. But let's entertain this: if the actual CPU speed is 838,860,800Hz, how many bytes does it process in 1 second? > Similarly, let's say we have a 1-bit Boolean attribute for each person in the world I…

> An interesting metric, used by noone in the Universe except you for the sake of this discussion. The speed of cryptographic function such as ciphers and hashes are quoted in cycles per byte. This is because in the pure numeric code, without worrying about memory transfer speed, the speed of the crypto algorithm is directly proportional to the CPU clock speed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encryption_software#Perfor…

> The speed of cryptographic function such as ciphers and hashes are quoted in cycles per byte.

That's called throughput, and denomination for it absolutely doesn't matter. You can measure it in megabytes as well as in MarketingMegabytes.

> If the CPU is 800 MiHz (never heard of that term, lol), then it processes 800 MiB in 1 second.

Plot twist, your 800MHz CPU oscillator would never run at 800,000,000Hz sharp for any substantial stretch of time. And clock specs are typically rounded numbers. That's why this whole example is ridiculous.

> No, I'm pointed out that the industry has already splintered into two.

No shit it did. My point is that it did it for no advantage at all. You could measure storage megabytes in same normal sane megabytes as before, just couldn't lie about it to the customers.

> If a byte is not derived from fundamental SI units, then it should not take on SI prefixes.

Kilo is a Greek prefix, not SI prefix. You can split hairs that it should mean sharp thosuand but it does not exist in terms of computer architecture. Kibi however is completely made up shit used by noone else and it sounds like a wannabe cartoon character.

> It is certainly feasible.

It is not feasible, that's why they aren't ever gonna be made.

> Also, if you have a computer and put in a 4 GiB stick of RAM and a 2 GiB stick, then you have 6 GiB of addressable memory, which is clearly not a power of 2.

It is not a power of 10 either, you should really think this through.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! It makes sense in context.

As long as you construct a strawmen strict enough that can be no ambiguity, and refuses to acknowledge any context where it's not enough, yeah, it always make sense in context.

[dead]

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#487
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that was my thought as well. Decibels make it much easier to do link budgets as you can just add or subtract instead of multiplying or dividing.

That's an excellent application of Decibels (or really any other logarithmic unit). TFA's gripes are with the many not so great ones.

Yeah, I'm not really familiar with sound engineering, so I don't know how valid his points are. But I'm fully on board with the complaints about notation, there must be a better way to do it than the current way.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#488

If you're specifying decibels in written form you always include the basis or you're simply being incomplete with your units. I don't understand the complaint there. In casual conversation, the context implies the basis. Dealing with decibels is also another shorthand to know the domain has a wide enough value gamut such that logarithmic values (where addition is multiplication) makes sense. See also, the Richter sca…

> I don't understand the complaint there. The problem is that almost nobody does. I can't remember the last time outside of HN comments here that I've seen dB(A) or similar in real world.

I guess I'm biased from my Electrical Engineering background as we use different decibels all the time so the basis is essential.

It would be akin to saying 'kilo', but not specifying a 'gram', or 'meter'.

That's fine for bakers as they don't work with kilometers routinely, but not for physicists or antenna engineering.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#489
post #223

This is an incredibly valuable article for anyone who's trying to make sense of decibels in some context. Michał clearly explains almost all of the gotchas you have to understand. I realized recently, after years of doing it for signal powers, that dB are a pretty convenient way to do mental logarithmic estimates for things that have nothing to do with power or signals, with only a small amount of memorization. Logar…

I wrote:

> So with just 2× = 3.01dB we already know (...) 8, to fairly good precision. (...) (The most imprecise of these is 8: 10⁰·⁹ is about 7.94, which is an error of about -0.7% when the right answer was 8.)

This is slightly mixed up. It's true that approximating 8× as 9dB gives you an 0.7% error. But I was talking about 3.01dB, and approximating 8× as 9.03dB gives 7.998×, only about 0.02% low.

The errors for the logarithms of the 10 digits thus approximated are:

  >>> print('\n'.join([f'  {10*p:.2f}: {100*(10**p-i-1)/(i+1):+.3f}%' for i, p in enumerate([0, .301, .477, .602, .699, .778, .845, .903, .954])]))
  0.00: +0.000%
  3.01: -0.007%
  4.77: -0.028%
  6.02: -0.014%
  6.99: +0.007%
  7.78: -0.035%
  8.45: -0.023%
  9.03: -0.021%
  9.54: -0.056%

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#490
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great, but only if 'Base level' is clear to everyone involved. Besides the base level, you also need to define what exactly you are measuring. Including the frequency weighting. This makes a spec sheet that says "this machine produces X dB of sound" effectively useless.

Any reasonable spec sheet would not say that. I say reasonable, because in the audio world, people pay extra money for oxygen-free copper cables.

I'm looking at quite a few consumer level workshop machines. All of them have horrible spec sheets already. But on sound, even if they do mention it, it is still useless.
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