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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#481

Post by Gormo »

nabla9 wrote: post #294
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution doesn't give any rights. It restricts the power of the government to curtail rights that already exist.

I hope you understand that's just cute wording. Individual rights exist only as far as they are protected by others. If you are robbed and nobody goes after the robber, the right to property does not de facto exist. The government must take an action.

> I hope you understand that's just cute wording.

It's a difference in wording that reflects a fundamentally different conceptual model of what rights are and how they work, which in turn has wide-ranging implications for how law, politics, and social interactions are conducted.

> Individual rights exist only as far as they are protected by others.

That makes little sense, given that the concept of 'rights' is a normative framework we use to evaluate the legitimacy of people's behavior. The whole point of asserting rights is to make moral/legal arguments against behavior that does transgress against other people.

Construing situations where those transgressions take place as 'rights nonexistent' instead of 'rights violated' defeats the entire purpose of establishing a model of rights in the first place.

For the same reason, it also makes little sense to employ a model of rights that attributes the source of rights to human organizations that have the capacity -- and often the intent -- to violate them.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#482

Post by sureIy »

CivBase wrote: post #371
sureIy wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, but I would hope that it works because parents are expected to teach their children to behave. Also just because they can't take their phone or punish them, it doesn't mean that they can't suspend students or fail them.

> I don't know, but I would hope that it works because parents are expected to teach their children to behave. Unfortunately that hasn't proven to be a reliable method here in the United States :( > Also just because they can't take their phone or punish them, it doesn't mean that they can't suspend students or fail them. I'm not a teacher but my wife is so I can only speak to what I've heard from her. And by her acc…

I'm aware that the US isn't Finland, what works in the latter might not work in other places. The US has gone to the far end of FREEDOM and is paying the consequences. Certain countries managed to reached an acceptable level of disciplined freedom.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#483

Post by opyate »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

Feature of flip phone is plenty for what you just described, which is what my kids have.

Smartphones, no. I'm not subjecting them to any algos, thank you very much.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#484

Post by opyate »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #329
bluGill wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I remember standing in line at the phone for 10 minutes as a kid waiting for my turn to call my parents when my activity was done. Cell phones are better. Smart phones would mean I could use the time waiting for something. Smart phones when class is in session is a distraction and should be banned. However outside of class they are helpful.

10 minutes, that you could use socializing with other students/pupils. Well, I can see the problem, we cannot possibly inflict this upon our children.

Lol, yeah, god forbid they make new friends in the queue.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#485

Post by mbs159 »

cheschire wrote: post #54
GuB-42 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is: smartphones exist. The young adults these children will become will live in a world where smartphones are an essential part of their life. Using a smartphone is a practical skill. That's why I don't think banning smartphones is the best idea. It is probably better than unrestricted access, but I feel that school should teach how to use them well instead. It is a bit like with calculators, there are clas…

Cars exist and are foundational to modern living yet we do not push kids to learn to drive until their later teenage years. Some countries wait until they are 18 and others choosing a couple years sooner.

> Cars exist and are foundational to modern living

I assume you are talking about North America here, because that is certainly not the case everywhere

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#486

Post by niieani »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

Give her a smartwatch with cellular instead (like an Apple Watch). She can do all the things you mentioned using a smartwatch without the distraction of apps and convenient texting.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#487

Post by H4X0R112 »

mickelsen wrote: post #470
vichle wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you for real looking up to the US in this case? That's so sad. There are things you can look up to, but over all they are fubar.

Yes. Very much so. We have to stand our ground against those who want to strip us of our freedoms, consolidate their monopoly on force, and leave us defenseless. This is no hypothetical situation, this happened in Chile during the 2019-2021 protests. The left tried to push like never before for drastic police reforms, including proposals to defund the police, remove their access to firearms, and dismantle units like…

Extraordinarily based, and this is coming from a peruANO. We aren't generally a Western Civilization so much as we are a broadly Mestizo-Amerindian one, and our political history is closer to Asia or Africa in terms of instability. We need more Bukeles in Mestizo societies and more Mileis in more westernized states like the southern cone.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#488

Post by H4X0R112 »

vichle wrote: post #465
tristor wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do not have a _right_ to kill anybody ever. However, you do have a _right to defend yourself_, within reason. That could in some situations mean that you take actions that kill someone. You are trying to indicate a difference where there is none. It's not me that decides another person's life is less than what they're trying to rob me of, it's them by taking an action that necessarily forfeits their life when I…

You are working under the assumption that everyone who takes property also wants to do physical harm. It's very sad. Most people who take property are otherwise peaceful individuals and more importantly, they are rational just like you and me. They do not want to risk a bigger penalty by using force. Your mindset is one that escalates any given situation. With your mindset you are putting yourself in much more risk t…

Statistically, thieves steal higher valued items compared to food or diapers for their kids. Such things must be rectified by harsh sentences and more vigilant police forces. This is why East Asia has such a low crime rate, compared to the West. This isn't facts you speak of, but your civilizational guilt after your forefathers destroyed so many societies like mine. Hopefully, this multipolar world will rectify Western guilt society dominance.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#489

Post by pixxel »

PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#490

Post by pixxel »

RHSeeger wrote: post #330
ethbr1 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As part of the last generation to grow up without phones in (early) school, this. The endless rationalizing of why kids need to have phones at every moment rings hollow... Because grade school kids actually did just fine without them. Things functioned, people got where they needed to get, emergencies were handled, etc. Especially with pre- and post-school access, we're balancing a minimum of in-school utility agains…

> The endless rationalizing of why kids need to have phones Once again, for the people not paying attention. It's not about _need_. It's about quality of life. It's about easier, faster, better, safer. Are there negatives to having cell phones? Sure. That's true for adults, too. And the benefits of having a cell phone need to be weighed against those negatives. But saying "you don't _need_ a cell phone" is a straw ma…

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