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Pope Francis has died

reuters.com

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#481

Post by daedrdev »

lazzurs wrote: post #240

A man has died, that is sad. Under his watch he did not move the church to fully acknowledge or deal with the historical and widespread abuses the organization he led was involved with. He had opportunity to be the leader to bring the organization around and he did not. Let's all hope his replacement will.

He is restricted by the system around him, with the internal Vatican politics and overall views of members of the Catholic Church being very relevant here. His replacement may be more conservative as a reaction to the decline of Church membership, or may not be, but I don't think he can be faulted personally for not attempting to set the wrongs of the church right, he clearly wanted to do so.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#482

Post by throaway1989 »

gortok wrote: post #266
ralfd wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.

Indeed; and when the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular, the obligation of the Church was to follow. Instead, the conservatives of the church ('conservative' here means those that emphasize adhering to tradition and are adverse to change) created a rift by eschewing this change and even heightening the importance of the Latin Mass, creating the impression that a mass spoken in the lo…

The issue ive heard with non-Latin mass is that it has lessened the feeling of global community among Catholics as they now do not all speak the same language (Latin).

Re: Pope Francis has died

#483

Post by tptacek »

ralfd wrote: post #255
gortok wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s important to note that The Two Popes was a drama, and not a true factual story. It fictionalizes and sensationalizes some details; and that’s ok because its purpose is to make you feel exactly the way you feel about it. Pope Francis was a wonderful steward of Christianity and espoused the virtues that anyone would want to see in their religious leaders: humility, grace, an openness to listen and a strong voice a…

> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.

It's complicated. Few people in the church, including the priests themselves, are fluent in Latin (there's a story told, I think by Francis himself, about an diocese in England that required priests to pass an exam to give a Traditional Latin Mass, and almost none of the requesting priests could pass). The TLM obscures what the mass is about, which creates space for practitioners to substitute in their own things, which, as it happens, tends to be idiosyncratically ultra-conservative stuff. The church is a top-down institution, and the TLM gets in the way of that and divides it.

(I like Latin! Took it in high school, reading Lingua Latina for fun; I think the TLM is neat. But problematic.)

Re: Pope Francis has died

#484

Post by slowmovintarget »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #465
gambiting wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still groups(at least I'm aware of them in Poland, I've met people who are part of them) who believe exactly this, that the second Vatican Sobor was a mistake and the "real" mass is only the one conducted in Latin.

It seems unlikely that Jesus spoke Latin at the last supper.

Also unlikely that Jesus intended for the ceremony to be conducted at times other than the evening of his death (replacing Passover). Up for interpretation, I suppose.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#487

Post by alistairSH »

dmix wrote: post #378
numbers_guy wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I see a lot of people commenting on this topic, I would like to offer a different perspective. Pope JPII was for my southern European social democratic Catholic family much more polarizing than Pope Francis. Pope Francis had politics that are mainstream and not at all controversial in my part of the world. Whereas JPII was perceived as the guy who was buddies with Reagan and Bush and a general supporter of Amer…

As an outsider it sounds like both were in the current overton window of the power systems at the time.

That's a fair assessment.

Notably, while Francis is sometimes considered liberal, there weren't (m)any notable changes to Church doctrine during his papacy.

He did have a habit (a good one, IMO) of speaking more off-the-cuff in interviews. Whether that was contrived, or just a natural part of his personality, I do not know. But, it was those comments that usually led to the "he's a liberal!" comments. And both sides of the political spectrum said similar things... "He's a liberal (like us)!" or "He's a liberal (unlike us)!" - so he was probably doing something right.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#488

Post by carabiner »

timeon wrote: post #338
jimmcslim wrote: post #237

The Vatican published an interesting document on AI [1], which attributes a number of quotes to Pope Francis: * As Pope Francis noted, the machine “makes a technical choice among several possibilities based either on well-defined criteria or on statistical inferences. Human beings, however, not only choose, but in their hearts are capable of deciding." * In light of this, the use of AI, as Pope Francis said, must be…

> * As Pope Francis observes, “the very use of the word ‘intelligence’” in connection with AI “can prove misleading” Yes, LLMs are more about knowledge than intelligence. AK rather than AI.

Noam Chomsky just called it "plagiarism software."

Re: Pope Francis has died

#489

Post by hibikir »

ryao wrote: post #356
fforflo wrote: post #153

In 2021, during a visit to the Greek island of Mytilene, Pope Francis delivered one of the finest speeches I've ever read: > This great basin of water, the cradle of so many civilizations, now looks like a mirror of death. Let us not let our sea (mare nostrum) be transformed into a desolate sea of death (mare mortuum). Let us not allow this place of encounter to become a theatre of conflict. Let us not permit this “s…

I had no idea anyone still used the term “mare nostrum”. I believe it began to be used during the Roman Empire when the Romans had conquered all lands surrounding the Mediterranean. Back then, the term meant the sea belonged to them and no one else. That meaning no longer applies in the modern day, so using it today would mean “we all share this” rather than the original meaning. His use of the term was a clever way…

It's not that weird a term: I was taught this as the Roman name for the Mediterranean in middle school history class in Spain, without having to take Latin. There's a boardgame and a video game with Mare Nostrum as the title. I's expect relatively well educated people in countries bordering the Mediterranean to understand what he meant with little trouble, especially if they are also speak a latin-derived language. For instance in Spanish, mare is just mar, nostrum would be nuestro, and mortuum is muerto. It'd all be trivial first guesses.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#490

Post by wcfields »

yusina wrote: post #397
solfox wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teacher of mine often reminds me that in many cultures—like Japanese and Native American traditions—the role of having an enemy is viewed with a certain respect. Enemies help define us. They challenge us, sharpen us, and push us to grow. Western culture tends to abhor the idea of having enemies, but sometimes, having them simply means you’ve stood for something meaningful—something worth noticing. It seems Pope Fra…

"Enemy" may be the wrong word for this. To me, that implies wishing sth bad on the other party and aiming to hurt/damage/destroy it. "Opponent"? "Antagonist"?

Not to sound like the oldest person in the room/thread, but the use of "opponent" as 'opps' has gained a lot of traction in the vernacular of Gen-z/alpha. Not so much as an outright enemy, and not so much as a 'hater'.
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