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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both? Indiscriminate chemical weapons is the issue, not the intent. Otherwise wouldn't all weapons be illegal?

Some weapons are intrinsically forbidden because of their effects on individuals: soft-point bullets for instance. These are as discriminate as you want them to be, but are nonetheless prohibited in conflicts. Thus it's not just indiscriminate weapons that are banned by international agreement!

When asked why tear gas is banned, the answer I gave was "the weapon is indiscriminate and chemical" not "all banned weapons are indiscriminate and chemical".

For example lasers used to blind soldiers are generally banned as well and as you point out, lasers are basically arbitrarily discriminate.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#482
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is impossible for Russia to "lose" in Serbia. The vast majority of Serbs support Russia, and are pissed at their government for not supporting it enough.

This is pure nonsense. These protests have nothing to do with Russia, and everything to do with corruption

Did I say otherwise? I think you meant to respond to the OP who implied that Russia is somehow "losing" because of these protests. My Russian wife is telling me that they don't like Vucic either and if he were to vacate the premises no one in Moscow would shed a single tear.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#483
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume it was used to disperse riots, in Serbia it was used as people were standing peacefully, observing 15 minutes of silence.

The difference between a peaceful protest and a riot is usually just a matter of who's doing the reporting. Or whether the police have bothered to plant a provocateur in the crowd to throw the molotov that justifies the police violence. Famously: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-278930... - which side started the violence? Was the footage shown out of order? Was the state broadcaster complicit?

The idea that protest provocateurs are all 5th column police plants is, uh, wrong.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#484
post #16

I wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.

I will always have more respect for prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers and thieves than people working in "defense". Even an exceptionally violent and prolific gangster could never come close to contributing to the suffering of as many people as your regular MIC employee, no matter where they're employed. If I were to try to imagine how I could realistically inflict the most suffering on the world, the clear answer wou…

How about if there would be an active deadly attack ongoing on you? Would working in defense then be less bad?

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#485
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's inline with what the point the GP was trying to make. Tear gas would otherwise fall into the definition of a weapon that would violate the Geneva Convention if not for the specific earmark that its okay for law enforcement to use it. Its a bit of a logical loop based only on definitions. Its not against the convention because the law includes the exception, but the exception otherwise goes against the…

> As explained in the military manual of the Netherlands, the prohibition of the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare is inspired by the fact that use of tear gas, for example, in armed conflict “runs the danger of provoking the use of other more dangerous chemicals”. A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of…

This would be all well and good except that society is not actually constructed by neutral arbiters outside the world, as much as certain parties have their pretensions to that -- they are created by the interactions of interested parties. In other words: class struggle.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#486
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That well might be true. But what about the people upu communicate with? They have messages from you, and probably don't have airgapped backups. So your ironclad backups don't matter much.

What I like in Telegram (though I don't use it), you can force delete messages on your interlocutor's device, at any time.

Telegram is Russian owned and run out of a monarchy. Telegram is not anyone's friend. "delete" is also not a black and white concept. There are many degrees of deletion.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If threat of injury is what stops someone from destroying your car, then it's appropriately leveraged. I'm also curious, what kind of effective, 'non-violent' means are there to control the initial mob-martyrs, and ensure level-handed justice is served? Those looking to escalate will use any police activity against them or their group as justification to do so.

Your disagreement essentially amounts to "it's appropriate because it accomplishes my goal", or do I misunderstand? In a discussion of ethics that seems specious to me. > Those looking to escalate will use any police activity against them or their group as justification to do so. As I previously pointed out, once rioters escalate against the officers themselves most people are unlikely to raise objections to targeted…

> Your disagreement essentially amounts to "it's appropriate because it accomplishes my goal", or do I misunderstand? In a discussion of ethics that seems specious to me.

My disagreement is that the ongoing or imminent unlawful destruction of property should be allowed to be met with _appropriate_ deterring force, whether by law enforcement or by the property owners. I argue that because in a system of individual rights that include property ownership, the position that an impassioned crowd has more right to that property than the owner (by damaging or destroying it in this case) is morally indefensible.

> once rioters escalate against the officers themselves most people are unlikely to raise objections to targeted use of force.

That is untrue for at least the last decade or so. After the 2015 Baltimore riots, President Obama couldn't even popularly get away with referring to rioters as "thugs"[1] after ~300 businesses were damaged, 60 buildings set on fire, 113 police officers injured and 27 drugstores looted. Since then, there have been plentiful riots and mass demonstrations that either turned violent or otherwise sheltered violent activity, including the moment in 2020 that spawned the "mostly peaceful protests" meme of the reporter with a building burning down behind him because of the rose-tinted glasses public analysts used in their coverage. Mayors and governors gave lip service to violent demonstrations like CHAZ/CHOP [2] while violence was taking place, and only tepidly supported law enforcement's presence to curtail it after the fact.

_To this day_ those actions are routinely and popularly dismissed as racial outrage, justified, etc. largely along political boundaries, all to the detriment of the thousands of individuals whose livelihoods were damaged or destroyed as result. The idea that good consciences will win the day and protestors will distance themselves from n'er-do-wells among them is, as a standard, irreconcilable with the countless recorded hours of protest footage that exist.

Rights aren't trumped by implicit public vote to destroy your property, any more than two thieves can vote that they need their victim's wallet more than them, or a gang of rapists can hold a 5-1 vote for consent. QED, immediate and active threats against property should, morally and legally, warrant an appropriate amount of force to defend it.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/29/us/baltimore-riots-thug-n-wor... [2] https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/chop-seattle-mayor-walks-b...

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the escalation seen in the Ukrainian Maidan, went from some heavy handed policing to non-lethal rounds (eg: teargas / beanbags) to BBs to snipers and live firing on crowds.

Yes, although that was exceptionally irrational, to the point where I don't really feel I understand the events.

“Winter on Fire” on Netflix is a pretty thorough documentary of events day-by-day, though many scenes are difficult to watch.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#489
post #16

I wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.

Just like HN crowd enjoy working on cool AI toys, now widely used to suppress people in china, iran, russia and soon the trumpland.

Each one of them who INSISTED we should "Just talk about the tech, not the politics" and that "You can't hold someone ethically responsible for creating a weapon, you must hate ONLY the people who use them"

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I similarly condemn such actions. But unless we are in a position to enforce any change in behaviour on Serbia then being unhappy on a web forum doesn't count. It's as useful as "thoughts and prayers". Take some meaningful action away from this forum and we'll see. I am not in a meaningful position to do so unfortunately.

Action isnt the only measure of meaning or the only determinate of caring. Caring exists on a spectrum, and isnt black and white. Thoughts and prayers are a form of caring as well, and an important one. It isn't always what a utilitarian wants, but it is part of a package deal when working with real humans with emotional and social lives.

I think you and I are largely in agreement in that caring is good. Without such caring then no such meaningful actions would ever happen. We need to care, it is a good part of society. But care without action can be ignored.

So as far as Serbia is concerned "no meaningful consequence = the world is fine with.. just about anything."

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