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The Demoralization is just Beginning

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Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#481

Post by maxerickson »

tomhoward wrote: post #372
maxerickson wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That when you drain every smart/productive person away from every other country This is a ridiculous premise.

I edited that sentence to be less absolutist, but still, isn't this essentially what this article and many people are advocating? Attracting all the smartest and most productive people in the world to move to the US? How is that a mischaracterisation of the argument?

What percentage of people do you think are capable of competence?

It would have to be a low number like 10%, with perfect sorting of them into the US, to even start to have the impact you are postulating.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#483

Post by flyinglizard »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #453
flyinglizard wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US of 50 years ago, democracy was protected by codes of conduct, honor, and most importantly, strong content moderation in the form of monopolistic legacy media. All of this went out the door with the rise of social networks and the demise of legacy media. I don't see how democracy has the tools to survive populists with direct connection to the voting public. Even if elections happen in 2028, there's a good c…

>democracy was protected by codes of conduct, honor, and most importantly, strong content moderation in the form of monopolistic legacy media. 50 years ago? Perhaps some of what you describe applied, in very limited form and only if you view a small segment of the media/political landscape with extremely rose-tinted glasses, but go read more of U.S media history to see how completely off base you really are. Media in…

50 years ago someone like Trump wouldn't have a way to obtain a platform from which he can amass a big enough public following. Anyone that wanted to play had to play nice with the establishment. 50 years ago, editorials mattered. Any messaging of a politician or candidate would be followed with context, analysis or discussion by journalists.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#484

Post by acatton »

dudefeliciano wrote: post #455
RivieraKid wrote: post #440

This started out interesting but then the red flags started to pop up. Going to jail in Europe for posting memes, gold standard, salivating over doing something that benefits the US and hurts countries that are already poorer than the US. He has strong opinions on economics, but doesn't understand it. His points about economics are partially true but either subtly incorrect or interpreted incorrectly.

is there any reliable source for that "going to jail in europe for posting memes"? I keep seeing this argument in online arguments, but can not find a credible source

There are multiple cases in Germany (where I live). I cannot find them all, but "Pimmelgate" is a famous one where one guy on twitter (that's what it was called at the time) told a local politician "Du bist ein Pimmel" (in English: "You're a dick") and the next day the police showed up at his apartment and searched it.

The issue is the harassment. Most of these cases are baseless and get dropped once presented to the public prosecutor. But it puts unwarranted stress on people who just opened their mouth, regardless if I disagree with what they had said.

If these cases were moved forward, they could end up in front of the European Court of Human Rights, where Germany and Austria are among the worst offenders[1] when it comes to the article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights[2], which grantees free speech in the EU.

Usually these individual cases are used by neo-conservatives to criticize Europe and describe it as (their words) "a socialist hellhole."

While this argument (= "there is no free speech in Europe") might be based on some truth, and while I agree that the free speech situation in most of Europe could be improved, I think it is grossly exaggerated.

[1] https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/#{%22languageisocode%22:[%22ENG%2...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#485

Post by dudefeliciano »

Clubber wrote: post #460
dudefeliciano wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any reliable source for that "going to jail in europe for posting memes"? I keep seeing this argument in online arguments, but can not find a credible source

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925 https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news/cheshire/news/articles/2... These things seem abhorrent to Americans who have nearly unlimited free speech protection.

I mean that glasgow guy was sentenced 800 pounds, went viral from those videos, and now has a huge youtube following...seems like a great deal

About those second 2 guys, what's that phrase that americans like so much? Fuck around and find out. I think the US, even in their nearly unlimited free speech, has similar laws in regards to inciting violence. Defamation, slander, fighting words, are also not protected by free speech. So really, the only difference between the US and UK is that the UK does not allow hate speech.

Germany has some more regulations, but the real significant difference seems to be about not being allowed to display nazi symbols or denying the holocaust.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#486

Post by flyinglizard »

makeitdouble wrote: post #429
flyinglizard wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point in time, US is the global leader in personal freedoms, culture and financial opportunities. These are the things people are looking to immigrate towards. Personal freedoms can't be manufactured. They are a product of the underlying system governing a country. The US has very strong institutions and legal framework in the form of the constitution (again, at this point in time; I expect the current admin…

Wether the US is a beacon of freedom is too much of a landmine, I'll just point out that there's about a few dozen countrjes around the world where you'll enjoy enough personal freedom. > Culture is something that's very hard to replicate. You are highlighting the global influence of the US. By definition, you'll get access to that global shine almost wherever you live. Nobody will immigrate to the US to watch Disney…

It's called the American Dream rather than American Reality for a reason. People follow this dream into the country. If China had enough of a hold on Western culture, it could too manufacture this perception which would draw immigrants in.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#487

Post by [deleted] »

emsy wrote: post #478
dudefeliciano wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any reliable source for that "going to jail in europe for posting memes"? I keep seeing this argument in online arguments, but can not find a credible source

It’s true for Germany. There recently was a case of a podcaster whose acquaintances were tapped and was apprehended while walking with his 1yo for posting memes. An AfD politician was fined 6000€ for posting crime statistics. A man had his house searched for sharing a meme of calling a politician something along the lines of „idiot“. There’s also the 60 minutes interview where prosecutors brag about confiscating devi…

[deleted]

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#488

Post by dudefeliciano »

emsy wrote: post #478
dudefeliciano wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any reliable source for that "going to jail in europe for posting memes"? I keep seeing this argument in online arguments, but can not find a credible source

It’s true for Germany. There recently was a case of a podcaster whose acquaintances were tapped and was apprehended while walking with his 1yo for posting memes. An AfD politician was fined 6000€ for posting crime statistics. A man had his house searched for sharing a meme of calling a politician something along the lines of „idiot“. There’s also the 60 minutes interview where prosecutors brag about confiscating devi…

ok but I was asking for some reliable sources, not a paragraph of anecdotes. I could go google each one myself, but I don't even want to imagine in what kind of hellhole websites I will end up in if I do that.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#489

Post by 4ndrewl »

emsy wrote: post #478
dudefeliciano wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any reliable source for that "going to jail in europe for posting memes"? I keep seeing this argument in online arguments, but can not find a credible source

It’s true for Germany. There recently was a case of a podcaster whose acquaintances were tapped and was apprehended while walking with his 1yo for posting memes. An AfD politician was fined 6000€ for posting crime statistics. A man had his house searched for sharing a meme of calling a politician something along the lines of „idiot“. There’s also the 60 minutes interview where prosecutors brag about confiscating devi…

Happy to fix that for you. You can no more go to jail for "posting a meme" than you can do for "speaking some words".

Context and content is important. There are limits to allowable speech (yes, even in the USA) and if you transgress that you can be breaking the law.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#490

Post by sgt101 »

Clubber wrote: post #460
dudefeliciano wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any reliable source for that "going to jail in europe for posting memes"? I keep seeing this argument in online arguments, but can not find a credible source

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925 https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news/cheshire/news/articles/2... These things seem abhorrent to Americans who have nearly unlimited free speech protection.

The two UK cases:

- Nazi pug man got a fine of £800; no jail.

- Cheshire people; in the context of rioting and the consequences of rioting.

For the record I think (personal view only) that the Nazi pug man should never have been prosecuted, I personally find it grossly offensive but I think that the harm of stopping people saying these things is greater than the harm of the idiot saying them.

The Cheshire thing I find much more serious, it seemed to me that this was about people calling for other people to get hurt and killed. Is it really the case that it's ok to threaten people or to call for violence against a community in the USA?

Also, what about folks like Snowdon and Assange? I mean if freedom of speech is absolute in the USA why can't they just tell the CCP about USA nuclear control?

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