Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead • Hacker News Board

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#481

Post by kibwen » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:41 PM UTC

judofyr wrote: post #423

kibwen wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The LKML quote is alleging that the upstream language developers (as opposed to random users on Reddit) are opposed to the idea of multiple implementations, which is plainly false, as evidenced by the link to the official blog post celebrating gccrs. Ted T'so is speaking from ignorance here.

(emphasis mine) > opposed to the idea of multiple implementations, which is plainly false , as evidenced by the link to the official blog post celebrating gccrs. Ted T'so is speaking from ignorance here. Why use so strong words? Yes, there's clearly a misunderstanding here, but why do we need to use equally negative words towards them? Isn't it more interesting to discuss why they have this impression? Maybe there's…

> Why use so strong words?

I'm not going to mince words here. Ted T'so should know better than to make these sorts of claims, and regardless of where he got the impression from, his confident assertion is trivially refutable, and it's not the job of the Rust project to police whatever incorrect source he's been reading, and they have demonstrably been supportive of the idea of multiple implementations. This wouldn't even be the first alternative compiler! Several Rust compiler contributors have their own compilers that they work on.

The kernel community should demand better from someone in such a position of utmost prominence.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#482

Post by UncleEntity » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:41 PM UTC

bebop wrote: post #92

galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

I work for a company that is open source and has a large community. I blows my mind (and often aggravates me) how rude some people can be. For some reason people feel that it is appropriate to throw barbs in their issue reports. Please to everyone out there, if you find an issue and want to report it (hurray open source!) please be kind with your words. There are real people on the other side of the issue. Always rem…

It always surprises me how happy people are when you submit a bug report with example code which demonstrates the problem. Like, irrationally happy.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#483

Post by generalizations » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:41 PM UTC

estebank wrote: post #476

attractivechaos wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hit by a similar thing. Rust once caused regression failures in 5000+ packages due to incompatibility with older "time" packages [1]. It was considered okay. At that point, I don't care what they say about semver. [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/127343#issuecomment...

That was a mistake and a breakdown in processes that wasn't identified early enough to mitigate the problem. That situation does not represent the self imposed expectations on acceptable breakage, just that we failed to live up to it and by the time it became clearer that the change was problematic it was too late to revert course because then that would have been a breaking change. Yes: adding a trait to an existing…

TBH that's a level of quality control that probably informs the Linux kernel dev's view of Rust reliability - it's a consideration when evaluating the risk of including that language.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#484

Post by estebank » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:41 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #427

jrvidal wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're mixing 2 things here: language backward-compatibility, vs. standard practices about what semver means for Rust libraries. The former is way stronger than the latter.

> language backward-compatibility, vs. standard practices about what semver means I've read and re-read this several times now and for the life of me I can't understand the hair you're trying to split here. The only reason to do semantic versioning is compatibility...

The failure mentioned above wasnt a case of the language changing behaviour, but rather the addition of a trait impl in the standard library conflicting with a trait impl in a third party crate, causing the build breakage.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#485

Post by busterarm » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:43 PM UTC

Den_VR wrote: post #453

busterarm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There's such a victim mentality throughout this post. While it's clear that marcan faced into headwinds, they're also definitely not somebody that I want to be around me in any kind of leadership position.

Can’t say I’d want you on the team characterizing a situation like this, and communicating about a situation like this, as “victim mentality.” There’s a lot of toxic behaviors that have wormed their way into certain parts of culture. I’m not as concerned about bright, brash men like Hector.

You're not concerned about somebody who incites the internet hate mob against you when they don't get their way in a technical/leadership disagreement?

The amount of drama that this has created for Linux when the entire situation was being handled in a non-dramatic way is staggering.

At its root, nothing about the entire situation had anything to do with marcan anyway and yet somehow he has focused an enormous amount of attention on himself and negative opinions at those he disagreed with. He habitually does things that draw attention to himself (in situations that aren't about him specifically) and then points to _any_ form of criticism he receives and cries harassment.

Of course anyone reasonable would never want to work with him.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#486

Post by generalizations » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:43 PM UTC

purplesyringa wrote: post #407

attractivechaos wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hit by a similar thing. Rust once caused regression failures in 5000+ packages due to incompatibility with older "time" packages [1]. It was considered okay. At that point, I don't care what they say about semver. [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/127343#issuecomment...

The comment you linked to explicitly shows that a maintainer does not consider this "okay" at all. T-libs-api made a mistake, the community got enraged, T-libs-api hasn't made such a mistake since. The fact that it happened sucks, but you can't argue that they didn't admit the failure.

"a maintainer"

The way you word that makes it sound like "the maintainers" and "T-libs-api" do not consider this "okay". Reading just above the linked comment, however, puts a very different impression of the situation:

> We discussed this regression in today's @rust-lang/libs-api team meeting, and agree there's nothing to change on Rust's end. Those repos that have an old version of time in a lockfile will need to update that.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#487

Post by School-Cotton » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:43 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #468

School-Cotton wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that "invoking corruption" is neither the plain meaning of those words, nor does it even make sense in this context, I don't think it's reasonable to claim Ted did so.

Ted Tso is an American, he was born in California, did his schooling in the US, and has worked here most (all?) of his career. As such he can be expected to know that "the thin blue line" is an idiom that carries with it a lot of connotation. It's perfectly reasonable to assume he was aware of the implications of his words and chose to use them anyway.

I'm American, I was born in Arizona, I did my schooling in the US, and I have worked in the US for all of my career. I disagree with your assertion that "thin blue line" necessarily implies support for corruption.

And by the way, so does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line doesn't mention this interpretation at all. The closest thing is this sentence, which is really not saying the same thing at all, and at any rate only presenting it as something "critics argue", rather than the settled meaning of the phrase.

> Critics argue that the "thin blue line" represents an "us versus them" mindset that heightens tensions between officers and citizens and negatively influences police-community interactions by setting police apart from society at large.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#488

Post by permo-w » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:43 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #399

jorvi wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its quite a well-known wisdom. I think someone in one of Nintendo or Sony's studios has said it too, in the form of: a complaint is worth twice a compliment. Satisfied customers will tell you they think your stuff is great, but dissatisfied customers will be able to hone in on exactly where the problem is. You can even extend this to personal life: if someone tells you your shabby car doesn't fit with the nice suits…

"All happy customers are alike; each unhappy customer is unhappy in its own way" - Tolstoy.

this isn't true, of course, but it sounds good

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#489

Post by opan » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:44 PM UTC

neoden wrote: post #401

With all due respect to the effort.. Projects built around unsupported ways to use someone else's products, aren't they doomed from the very start? This race that you can't win isn't it a recipe for imminent burnout? I don't even mean that Apple has no interest in this project in the best case, but why Linux maintainers would want to accept changes that are necessary to support such a marginal use case?

Stuff like this is fairly common. Drivers for the Wiimote and other Nintendo controllers were not put in the kernel by Nintendo employees or with their blessing. Sometimes you want something to work and the only way is to handle it yourself.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#490

Post by ajross » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 6:44 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #446

ajross wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The same people community clutching pearls This is an unfortunate typo because your meaning is completely lost. If your claim is that individuals are being hypocritical then you may have a point. Especially if you can produce examples. But if you mean community vs community then you have simply bought in to the religious debate which isn’t interesting.

[flagged]