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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

481–490 of 660 posts

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#481

If you live in the Bay Area on the Peninsula, you'll be excited to know that the San Carlos airport and the FAA are in a pissing match over their air traffic controllers' pay, threatening to un-staff the control tower and leave that very busy airspace without tower control. The tower was set to go dark on Feb 1st[1] but it looks like there is now a temporary extension[2] keeping it staffed. Why these guys need to pla…

I don't get why lives are at stake here. Surely the consequence of reduced ATC coverage means less flights moving through the area, not the same amount of flights being managed by fewer people?

There's only additional risk if you treat the amount of planes in an area as some kind of inevitable force of nature. If an area isn't safe because of a lack of staff, flights can be canceled to reduce the load on remaining staff without impacting safety.

Sucks for the people who bought a ticket, but a canceled flight is a lot better than dying in a plane crash.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? Banking? Sales? > Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc Well that's quite the point. Maybe those circles are small in the US, but they aren't in most of the rest of the world. Let me just say that if I called my parents and told them that I had gotten a well-paid job at, say, a hedge fund, they would not be impressed and would likely think less of me…

One doesn't need to be anti-capitalist to dislike bankers, salespeople, or many other similar careers. They, in many cases at least, rely on information inequalities to deceive and rip off people. I love capitalism, but I loathe sketchy behavior done in the pursuit of money. They are two very different things.

Also, a nonzero amount of people remember events like the Great Recession that were caused by the hubris of bankers.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#483
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA restricts the number of positions for medical schools and residencies. It's a problem that money could solve.

There is no restriction on medical school admissions. It's really just residencies.

There are no artificial restrictions on residency slots. The Federal government funds a fixed number of slots, but states and hospitals also fund residencies. The "shortage" has much to do with geography and specialty--the money and interest is working in specialties on the coasts, not as a GP in rural towns. People who are rejected are typically vying for slots in high-demand areas and specialties; they often could have been accepted if they had applied elsewhere.

One answer would be to raise GP salaries, but that's difficult, especially if you're self-funding residencies and already paying out the nose for specialists and other inflated expenses deemed necessary in modern healthcare systems. Kaiser California imports medical school graduates from abroad for their in-house residency programs, which is presumably cheaper than raising salaries to draw more US resident candidates.

Kaiser arguably points the way forward. As an HMO--a vertically integrated healthcare system--there's greater financial incentive to self-fund residencies. When insurers, hospitals, and doctors are all at arms length from each other, the financial incentives don't align very well, thus the "need" for outside funding (i.e. the government) of residencies.

Note that unfunded residencies are also a thing, where the resident is responsible for sourcing the funds for their salary and expenses.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#484

How much do they get paid?

Found this helpful site. https://123atc.com/salary Assuming it is accurate, the pay scale at an airport like DCA is $137K - $185K. SFO $180K-237K. Smaller airports are a lot less. Lancing, MI: $70 - 94K.

> Assuming it is accurate...

Why assume with some random .com TLD source when authoritative data is both public[1] and direct from the cow's mouth?

[1] https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits#collapse5386

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It truly boggles my mind that Trump may have a legitimate basis for alleging that DEI policies have contributed to issues with ATC staffing. > First, to liberals: > I dislike Trump as much as anyone. Maybe I’m not supposed to play my hand like that while reporting a news article, but it’s true. I’ve wanted him out of politics since he entered the scene a decade ago, I voted against him three elections in a row, and I…

Seems like bad news for minorities either way. Even if the lawsuit is dismissed, who would want to take on one of the most stressful jobs now knowing that if something goes wrong, millions of racist white people (including the president) will feel emboldened to blame you because of your skin color?

The article does not imply that they reduced standards in order to let DEI student pass.

Rather they added an insane biographical test that only DEI students could pass, with the net effect of dramatically reducing the availability of ATC's.

i.e. a minority ATC is just as qualified, but there are far fewer white ATC than there should be.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It truly boggles my mind that Trump may have a legitimate basis for alleging that DEI policies have contributed to issues with ATC staffing. > First, to liberals: > I dislike Trump as much as anyone. Maybe I’m not supposed to play my hand like that while reporting a news article, but it’s true. I’ve wanted him out of politics since he entered the scene a decade ago, I voted against him three elections in a row, and I…

The relevant question is whether this issue affected the absolute number of filled ATC positions, not just who got them. Though the facts on the latter are Not Great, and nuance is not exactly abundant right now.

They mention that extended offers declined year-over-year after the policy. The implication to me (though it is left unsaid) is that the treatment of students, colleges, etc. by the FAA led to fewer people interested in spending their own time and money for ATC training since the FAA fucked them over so badly.

> Per Fischer, applicants declined year-over-year from 2014 onward. In 2016, hiring was divided into two pools: Pool 1, veterans and CTI students (4021 applicants, 1451 offer letters) and Pool 2, for general population (25,156 applicants, 6799 who passed the biographical questionnaire, 1500 offer letters). By 2019, only 9265 applied, with 6419 (923 from Pool 1, 5496 from Pool 2), with 234 Pool 1 offer letters and 680 in Pool 2.16

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#487
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like bad news for minorities either way. Even if the lawsuit is dismissed, who would want to take on one of the most stressful jobs now knowing that if something goes wrong, millions of racist white people (including the president) will feel emboldened to blame you because of your skin color?

The article does not imply that they reduced standards in order to let DEI student pass. Rather they added an insane biographical test that only DEI students could pass, with the net effect of dramatically reducing the availability of ATC's. i.e. a minority ATC is just as qualified, but there are far fewer white ATC than there should be.

They did indeed reduce standards. From the article:

> Throughout the ‘90s and ‘00s, the FAA faced pressure to diversify its field of air traffic controllers, historically a profession that has been primarily white men, notably from the NBCFAE.4 In the early 2000s, this pressure focused on the newly developed air traffic control qualification test, the AT-SAT, which the NBCFAE hired Dr. Outtz to critique from an adverse impact standpoint. As originally scored, the test was intended to pass 60% of applicants, but predictions suggested only 3% of black applicants would pass.5 In response, the FAA reweighted the scoring to make the test easier to pass, reducing its correlation with job performance as they did so.6 In its final form, some 95% of applicants passed the test.7

> This was a bit of a shell game. In practice, they divided it into a “well qualified” band (with scores between 85 and 100 on the test, met by around 60% of applicants) and a “qualified” band (with scores between 70 and 84), and drew some 87% of selections from that “well qualified” band.8 Large racial disparities remained in the “well qualified” band. As a result, facing continued pressure, the FAA began to investigate ways to deprioritize the test.

> Why not ditch it altogether? Simple: the test worked. It had “strong predictive validity,” outperforming “most other strategies in predicting mean performance,” and it was low cost and low time commitment. On average, people who performed better on the test actually did perform better as air traffic controllers, and this was never really in dispute. When they tested alternative measures like biographical data, they found that the test scores predicted 27% of variance in performance, while the “biodata” predicted only 2%. It just didn’t do much.9

> The NBCFAE continued to pressure the FAA to diversify, with its members meeting with the DOT, FAA, Congressional Black Caucus, and others to push for increased diversity among ATCs. After years of fiddling with the research and years of pressure from the NBCFAE, the FAA landed on a strategy: by using a multistage process starting with non-cognitive factors, they could strike “an acceptable balance between minority hiring and expected performance”—a process they said would carry a “relatively small” performance loss.10 They openly discussed this tension in meetings, pointing to “a trade-off between diversity (adverse impact) and predicted job performance/outcomes,” asking, “How much of a change in job performance is acceptable to achieve what diversity goals?” There is a trade-off between diversity (adverse impact) and predicted job performance/outcomes. How much of a change in job performance is acceptable to achieve what diversity goals?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#488
post #30

How much do they get paid?

From https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers : > The approximate median annual wage for air traffic control specialists is $127,805. The salaries for entry-level air traffic control specialists increase as they complete each new training phase.

That's a significant low ball estimate relative to BLS statistics[1], which pins national median annual wage (circa May 2023 dataset) at $137,380.

For the DC locality specifically, median annual wage is $170,350 with a location quotient of 3.5 (!!)[2].

To be sure, this is just base wage, which explicitly excludes things like holiday premiums, weekend premiums, overtime, shift differentials, bonuses, etc.

This also doesn't include that oh-so-sweet defined benefit pension. The most ambitious civil service employees absolutely love gaming the shit out of this by lateral transfer to a high cost of living locality (e.g. DC metro area) for the last 3 years before retiring (at age 56) and moving to relatively low cost of living areas (e.g. Florida).

[1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes532021.htm

[2] The location quotient is the ratio of the area concentration of occupational employment to the national average concentration.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#489
post #478
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Offer more compensation. > Too much stress? I bet if you paid people so much money that they could work for 10 years and then either retire to a lower paying job, or retire entirely, people would deal with it. I highly doubt that solving the problem with just money will get the right people. A high salary becomes the goal in an of itself, and everything else falls to the wayside. Do you really care about safety? Ap…

Corrupting or motivating? Thin line I’d say.

The other side of the coin is you won’t get the candidates you want if they can get the same money for less taxing jobs. Game theory 101.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rising costs have made that much more true, though. My step-dad had a gorgeous 1940s Luscombe that he paid ~35k for in the 90s. He lived in an airpark where he paid 280k for a nice 3br house with a hangar. Good luck trying to replicate that now.

Having 85k of purely discretionary income (adjusting for inflation) is still pretty "rich people toy". That's about 105% median household income.

He had to get a loan for it, he didn't have that out of pocket.

And an upper-mid car is not by any means beyond the reach of many regular working class people.

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