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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#481

Post by eigenheart »

gerdesj wrote: post #368
all2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel. As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

I don't think that you need to be a Christian to empathise with anyone. The big geezer's (JC) teachings imply to me that keeping quiet about your faith and simply doing good (for a given value of good) is the Way. Declaring a religion might rile someone, before you have even engaged. I suggest that you simply proffer a hand. Empathise as best you can. Be careful. At best, with mentioning religion, you have declared y…

Jesus did not instruct His disciples to remain quiet and do good as the Way. Jesus instructed His disciples to follow His commandments which includes sharing the gospel with all creatures in all the world (Mark 16:15, Luke 14:23). May the Lord bless you and keep you.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#482

Post by derektank »

hibikir wrote: post #249
ericd wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brilliant summary, thanks. I'm interested in #4, is there anywhere you know of to read more about that? I don't think I've seen that described except obliquely in eg sayings about the relationship between genius and madness.

There's another way around it. People that see themselves as "freethinkers" are also ultimately contrarians. Taking contrarianism as part of your identity makes people value unconventional ideas, but turn that around: It also means devaluing mainstream ideas. Since humanity is basically an optimization algorithm, being very contrarian means that, along with throwing away some bad assumptions, one also throws away a w…

You don't have to adopt the ideas of every fringe or contrarian viewpoint you come across to be a freethinker; you simply have to be willing to consider and evaluate those views with the same level of rigor you give to mainstream views. Most people who do that will probably adopt a handful of fringe beliefs but, for the most part, retain a very large number of conventional beliefs too. Julia Galef is kind of an archetypal rationalist/free thinker and she has spoken about the merits of traditional ideas from within a rationalist framework.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#483

Post by accengaged »

Arkhadia wrote: post #476
sterlind wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's been an exhausting couple of weeks for me, as a trans person. one executive order after another, explicitly attacking us. scrambling to update all my documents, navigating a Kafkaesque bureaucracy with constantly shifting rules. now this. there are like six Zizians. there are millions of trans people. I'm sure that many of the Zizians being trans says something about the Ziz cult, but Ziz doesn't say anything ab…

[flagged]

Remember that there are billions of humans on earth. A few million of a minority is a drop in the ocean of 8.02 billion!

Please check your empathy on a horrible situation for OP.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#484

Post by numpad0 »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #189

This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers and stabbing 80 year olds with swords. This is the kind of thing where it is warranted that the feds gets every single wiretap, interception, and surveillance possible on everyone involved in the zizian movement.

At least it's clear that they aren't receiving proper sword handling training. Good grief.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#485

Post by chroma »

teractiveodular wrote: post #474
chroma wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the Zizians who lived in Vallejo moved there from the Berkeley area. The reason they moved was because Curtis Lind felt empathetic and offered them extremely cheap rent. After not paying rent for years (despite at least one of them being an engineer at Google), they ambushed Lind, then tried to behead him and dissolve his body in a vat. Fortunately he was carrying a concealed firearm, so he shot them in self-…

(deleted incorrect claim)

I don’t know where you heard that. According to every article I could find, Borhanian was shot by Lind in self-defense[1]:

> Court records show that Lind shot two of his attackers, injuring one person and killing 31-year-old Emma Borhanian.

Back in 2019, Borhanian was arrested and charged with felony child endangerment and false imprisonment in a protest against a rationalist group.[2]

1. https://openvallejo.org/2025/01/27/man-killed-in-vallejo-was...

2. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Mystery-in-Sonom...

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#486

Post by fipar »

SilasX wrote: post #196
SilasX wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would describe everyone who follows a major religion as well.

Am I wrong? Read the quote again: "appears to behave normally in regular matters and is capable of independent living, does not match other DSM symptoms, but believes insane things". None of you think the major religions teach some insane things? Okay then.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_cognitive_imperat...

“ Such ridicule typically will not occur after a religious conversion brings a previous non-conformist into the fold of the culture’s dominant religion.”

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#487

Post by wronginternet4 »

Arkhadia wrote: post #476
sterlind wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's been an exhausting couple of weeks for me, as a trans person. one executive order after another, explicitly attacking us. scrambling to update all my documents, navigating a Kafkaesque bureaucracy with constantly shifting rules. now this. there are like six Zizians. there are millions of trans people. I'm sure that many of the Zizians being trans says something about the Ziz cult, but Ziz doesn't say anything ab…

[flagged]

1.6% of US adults are trans or non-binary https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/06/07/about-5-o...

1.6 million in the US https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Tr...

3% worldwide https://www.statista.com/statistics/1269778/gender-identity-...

And considering the current climate, I can imagine these numbers are under reported.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#488

Post by chasd00 »

Arkhadia wrote: post #476
sterlind wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's been an exhausting couple of weeks for me, as a trans person. one executive order after another, explicitly attacking us. scrambling to update all my documents, navigating a Kafkaesque bureaucracy with constantly shifting rules. now this. there are like six Zizians. there are millions of trans people. I'm sure that many of the Zizians being trans says something about the Ziz cult, but Ziz doesn't say anything ab…

[flagged]

> Happy to provide numerous sources on this.

Please do.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#489

Post by downrightmike »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #48

From the article: A 2023 post on Rationalism forum LessWrong.com warned of coming violence in the Zizian community. “Over the past few years, Ziz has repeatedly called for the deaths of many different classes of people,” the anonymous post read. Jessica Taylor, a friend of Baukholt’s, told Open Vallejo she warned Baukholt about the Zizians, describing the group on X as a “death cult.” The post: https://www.lesswrong.…

[flagged]

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#490

Post by derektank »

LeroyRaz wrote: post #463
rachofsunshine wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they don't apply formal or "formalist" approaches, they invoke the names of formal methods but then extract from them just a "vibe". I broadly agree with this criticism, but I also think it's kind of low-hanging. At least speaking for myself (a former member of those circles), I do indeed sit down and write quantitative models when I want to estimate things rigorously, and I can't be the only one who does. > In…

What you describe (doing basic market analysis) is pretty much unrelated to 'rationality.' 'Rationality' hasn't really made any meaningful contributions to human knowledge or thinking. The things you describe, are all products of scientists and statisticians, etc... Bayesian statistics is not rationality. It is just Bayesian statistics... And it is mathematicians who should get the credit not less wrong!!

The rationalist movement, if it is anything, is a movement defined by the desire of its members to perceive the world accurately and without bias. In that sense, using a variety of different tools from different academic and intellectual disciplines (philosophy, economics, mathematics, etc) should be expected. I don't think any of the major rationalist figures (Yudkowsky, Julia Galef, Zvi Mowshowitz) would claim any credit for developing these ideas; they would simply say they've used and helped popularize a suite of tools for making good decisions.
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