Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 1001 posts

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#481

Post by mcmcmc »

hnlmorg wrote: post #474
827a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

[flagged]

Nobody is accusing them, just stating it’s a possibility, which would also be true if they were an American or European company. Corporate espionage is just more common in China.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#482

Post by exe34 »

827a wrote: post #465
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

I don't think you need to steal a model - you need training samples generated from the original, which you can get simply by buying access to perform API calls. This is similar to TinyStories (https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.07759), except here they're training something even better than the original model for a fraction of the price.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#484

Post by nostradumbasp »

827a wrote: post #465
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

I really doubt it. If that's the case the US GOV is in serious shit. They have a contract with OpenAI to chuck all their secret data in there... In all likelihood they just distilled. It's a start up company that is publishing all of their actual advances in the open, with proof. I think a lot of people run to "espionage" super fast, when reality is, the US probably sucks at what we call AI. Don't read that wrong, they are a world leader obviously. However, there is a ton of stuff they have yet to figure out.

Cheapening a series of fact checkable innovations because of the country of origin when so far all that they have showed are signs of good faith is paranoid at best and propaganda to support the billionaire tech lords saving face for their own arrogance at worst.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#486

Post by RevEng »

fumeux_fume wrote: post #392
blast wrote: post #374

Everyone is responding to the intellectual property issue, but isn't that the less interesting point? If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" and isn't the Sputnik-like technical breakthrough that we've been hearing so much about. That's the news here. Or rather, the potential news, since we don't know if it's true yet.

This has been in the back of my head since the news broke. Has anyone built their own R1 from scratch and validated it?

In the last few days? No, that would be impossible; no one has the resources to train a base model that quickly. But there are definitely a lot of people working on it.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#487

Post by nostradumbasp »

hnlmorg wrote: post #474
827a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

[flagged]

No reason why you were downvoted. This is completely valid.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#488

Post by ardit33 »

alecco wrote: post #471
827a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

That would require stealing the model weights and the code as OpenAI has been hiding what they are doing. Running models properly is still quite artistic. Meanwhile, they have access to Meta models and Qwen. And Meta models are very easy to run and there's plenty of published work on them. Occam's Razor.

How hard it is, if you have someone inside with the access of the code? If you have 100s of people with full access, not hard to have someone that is willing to sell it or do some industrial espionage...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#489

Post by sanitycheck »

nostradumbasp wrote: post #484
827a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

I really doubt it. If that's the case the US GOV is in serious shit. They have a contract with OpenAI to chuck all their secret data in there... In all likelihood they just distilled. It's a start up company that is publishing all of their actual advances in the open, with proof. I think a lot of people run to "espionage" super fast, when reality is, the US probably sucks at what we call AI. Don't read that wrong, th…

If the US government is "chucking all their secret data" into OpenAI servers/models, frankly they deserve everything they get for that level of stupidity.
Post reply on HN