US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19 • Hacker News Board

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#481

Post by pas » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:47 PM UTC

ludston wrote: post #462

pas wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine and Russia also continues to trade gas. Countries pay Gazprom and Ukraine charges Gazprom for transit. Life is not black and white. See also https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now/

Yeah it's the lack of black and whiteness that makes me so confused as to why you would brand the government of a 1 billion person nation as an enemy rather than say, a competitor or even an ally that behaves in occasionally intolerable ways. Kind of like how a lot of nations continue to be allies with a nation that goes around invading other nations and deposing legitimately elected governments in the interest of or…

I think the useful model for this is that currently there's a competition between the naval powers and the land powers, which is rapidly heating up. (Due to the last decades of very high rate of economic growth of China.)

https://youtu.be/YcVSgYz5SJ8?t=7765

Maritime order (basically a trade alliance, if you join you have more chance to influence it, win-win) and the continental order (buffer zone, extractive/authoritarian, negative-sum).

Of course as the competition is getting fierce one seems to borrow from the other. (Russia is funding itself and its war from trade. And China sold market access in exchange for technology.) And the US is now transitioning from soft-power to pay up or you are out. (Balance of trade, NATO contributions, etc.)

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#482

Post by api » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:47 PM UTC

flkenosad wrote: post #459

I really hate how people are arguing that it should be banned because of the content being inappropriate in one way or another when the content you see is based on how you interact with the app. We don't all see the same stuff. So yeah China may have more educational content but that's probably just becuase the people there are interested in that stuff. When I travel to the mountains, I get more outdoorsy/hiking vide…

This is really naive. These algorithms can be and are tuned to manipulate the audience.

That being said, it’s not fair to single out TikTok. They all do it. The only unique danger with TikTok is that it could be controlled by a foreign adversary, or at least could be more easily than the others.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#483

Post by shlant » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:48 PM UTC

user3939382 wrote: post #479

professor_v wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do we ensure that Tiktok doesn't covertly alter the algorithm to subtly include propaganda tailored to China's geopolitical interests that are detrimental to the US? Or even just propaganda tailored to enhance internal strife to weaken the country?

What’s funny is nothing could be worse for our country than post war US foreign policy. Check out the wikipedia article on US foreign interventions. We don’t need China to fuck us up by subtly sending messages, we have our entire political establishment overtly doing it every day in DC.

"U.S. bad so just ignore outside influence". Can you imagine a world where both should be taken seriously? Or are you just here to minimize?

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#484

Post by shlant » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:51 PM UTC

api wrote: post #482

flkenosad wrote: post #459

I really hate how people are arguing that it should be banned because of the content being inappropriate in one way or another when the content you see is based on how you interact with the app. We don't all see the same stuff. So yeah China may have more educational content but that's probably just becuase the people there are interested in that stuff. When I travel to the mountains, I get more outdoorsy/hiking vide…

This is really naive. These algorithms can be and are tuned to manipulate the audience. That being said, it’s not fair to single out TikTok. They all do it. The only unique danger with TikTok is that it could be controlled by a foreign adversary, or at least could be more easily than the others.

> That being said, it’s not fair to single out TikTok.

> The only unique danger with TikTok is that it could be controlled by a foreign adversary, or at least could be more easily than the others.

Isn't that the entire reason given for why they are singling them out? You say it's not fair then give the exact reason why it seems to be.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#485

Post by api » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:51 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #465

flkenosad wrote: post #459

I really hate how people are arguing that it should be banned because of the content being inappropriate in one way or another when the content you see is based on how you interact with the app. We don't all see the same stuff. So yeah China may have more educational content but that's probably just becuase the people there are interested in that stuff. When I travel to the mountains, I get more outdoorsy/hiking vide…

Are you aware of what happened in Romania with Tiktok? A candidate got funded by foreign agents, paid for influencers, and sprinkled with Russian bot accounts it was enough to make a pro-Russian candidate get 20% of votes when he was an unknown political figure.[0] The app allows this. You can try to distract everyone from an app that enables illegal foreign interference by hiding under the guise of "oh, this is just…

The solution to this is to change the way elections work to make it harder to pull off this kind of short term influence pumping. The problem is that it’s possible to flood the zone with shit before people have a chance to have discourse on it.

I’ve heard a number of ideas including multiple round elections with averaged results. That way if someone pops in round one the discourse can focus a spotlight on them and if people don’t like what they see on closer inspection they can push the other way in round two.

The other problem though is that establishment politicians are so unpopular in so many places around the world that a rando with a simple catchy meme-worthy message can run in from nowhere and upset things. If the establishment were more responsive to the people it would be harder to do this.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#486

Post by aziaziazi » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:51 PM UTC

tw1984 wrote: post #471

professor_v wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do we ensure that Tiktok doesn't covertly alter the algorithm to subtly include propaganda tailored to China's geopolitical interests that are detrimental to the US? Or even just propaganda tailored to enhance internal strife to weaken the country?

this is the exact same question being asked around the global - how could you be sure that American made LLMs are not altered in a way to maximize US interests at the costs of everyone else's.

Or like, movies?

> The agreement was seen as a way to "spread the American way of life" though a war-torn France (and Europe at large)

> To further the cultural propagation effect of the Blum–Byrnes agreements, the informational Media Guaranty Program was established in 1948 as part of the Economic Cooperation Administration to "guarantee that the US government would convert certain foreign currencies into dollars at attractive rates, provided the information materials earning the moneys reflected appropriate elements of American life".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%E2%80%93Byrnes_agreemen...

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#487

Post by user3939382 » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:51 PM UTC

shlant wrote: post #483

user3939382 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s funny is nothing could be worse for our country than post war US foreign policy. Check out the wikipedia article on US foreign interventions. We don’t need China to fuck us up by subtly sending messages, we have our entire political establishment overtly doing it every day in DC.

"U.S. bad so just ignore outside influence". Can you imagine a world where both should be taken seriously? Or are you just here to minimize?

Our official policy is to bankrupt our country by medaling in the affairs of everyone else, how could their “influence” possibly be any worse?

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#488

Post by snapcaster » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:51 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #467

HKH2 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese Tiktok is forcibly wholesome (by Chinese standards). They do not believe in absolute freedom of speech. Now Americans have just conceded that they don't believe in it either. It's good that we're all on the same page now.

[flagged]

Holy shit can you people stop with "every point that disagrees with me is a russian propaganda point" are you serious? Can you not conceive of anyone disagreeing with you in good faith without being a state actor? You're literally just declaring a specific kind of speech "not free speech" as if it's a fact and not your arbitrary opinion

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#489

Post by dkd903 » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:52 PM UTC

tw1984 wrote: post #471

professor_v wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do we ensure that Tiktok doesn't covertly alter the algorithm to subtly include propaganda tailored to China's geopolitical interests that are detrimental to the US? Or even just propaganda tailored to enhance internal strife to weaken the country?

this is the exact same question being asked around the global - how could you be sure that American made LLMs are not altered in a way to maximize US interests at the costs of everyone else's.

Simple - no one asked you to use American LLMs. The same way no one asked you to rely on America to power your defence forces.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#490

Post by hnfong » Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 12:52 PM UTC

flohofwoe wrote: post #385

ClassyJacket wrote: post #182

I thought America had freedom?? How can they claim to have freedom if the government says they can't even use a video app.

Using the app won't be illegal, you just can't get it from US app stores anymore (e.g. the personal freedom of users is preserved, only the freedom of some companies to do business in the US is restricted - e.g. a regular tradewar scenario).

"What good is a phone call, if you are unable... to speak?"

-- Agent Smith