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Every company should be owned by its employees

elysian.press

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Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#481
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe "taking over the market" is a bad metric, and we should be optimizing for making a company that makes the workers' lives better. The US cultural bias is showing here, as it's assumed that profit is above all else, and a company that forgoes profit to make workers happier must thus be less good. The vast majority of people in companies are workers. Let's stop optimizing for owner wealth and start optimizing…

You are making normative arguments, but the question is wholly empirical -- the metrics being applied here are the ones that actually measure the success and viability of firms, not metrics selected to fit the observer's emotional attachments. Firms that are optimized for turning market demand into revenue streams will naturally outcompete firms that are optimized for other goals, regardless of what ideals or prefere…

Success and viability within a system that is mutable

> There's a large economics literature on this: worker-owned cooperatives have not taken over the market, although they are an available institutional form, because (a) they find it hard to raise capital

There are any number of ways of making it easier for co-ops to raise captital.

> (b) they tend to make decisions that maximize worker welfare rather than profit, e.g. they won't sack underperforming divisions or expand in ways that dilute existing workers' stake.

You could make a similar case that making decisions solely around stock price leads to underperformance as well, if we quantify "performance" in terms of value provided to the broader economy. Mass layoffs are great for stock price, but they deal serious damage to your institutional knowledge base. Rather than simply shuttering an underperforming division, if you buy out the ownership stakes of the people working there, they'll have cash to re-train with. If we find that co-ops have a tendency to avoid doing that when necessary, we can tweak the incentives and subsidize a portion of the buyout, under certain circumstaces. Subsidies to tweak incentives are nothing new.

> This isn't something that anyone can decide upon

Yes, it is. Policy can change which strategies predominate in the market, by shifting incentives, by controlling streams of investment, and simply by regulating undesirable strategies out of existence. Mixed economies can be very effective. The notion that the market is a force which out to go untampered with is ideological, and it doesn't serve us well.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are there so many more startups in the US compared to Europe? While not a perfect measurement, there is more innovation and economic generation that happens in the US compared to Europe. Time will prove which culture of business wins.

Why is number of startups a metric we care about? Are we just asking rhetorical questions that pick out one data point that we think supports our presupposed notions?

… especially when those startups are overwhelmingly outsourced R&D for monopolists, not in actual competition with those monopolists.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#483
post #94

Employee stock options are not a new idea, obviously. If the story is "every company should offer stock options to its employees", then sure, that's often a good business plan. The reason not every company does it to all its employees is probably that for those employees, it wouldn't affect incentives much and it would make payment subject to the vagaries of the stock market. Your barista at Starbucks is not going to…

Something that is naturally selected is not necessarily good. Most of nature is horrible in fact. And everything we do is a fight against nature to make it better.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what laws and regulations are for : ensuring that entities that are trying to do the right thing and make life better for actual humans aren't "outcompeted" by entities that are trying to make things better for themselves at everyone else's expense.

We actually have two mechanisms: laws/regulations and customers voting with their wallet. Since we see that a majority of customers consistently go with the cheaper option, we know how they feel. So the "better" firm gets outcompeted. So regulation, you say. But those regulations are set by governments voted in by the same consumers. Their preference for lower prices is clear, and government follows their preference.…

> Is your suggestion that the government go against the will of the people and apply those pro-worker-coop regulations anyway?

This litmus test is absurd. If more consumers buy products manufactured with child labour, is it "going against the will of the people" to ban child labour? Not in any meaningful way, certainly.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that employees make most money from the profits paid to them as owners, instead of an increase in the stock price and then selling.

Companies frequently make no profits. Imagine missing your rent payment because your company had a bad quarter.

Profits and operating cash flow are two different things. Only the latter matters in terms of meeting payroll. Very few companies of any kind cut pay or lay off employees just because they "had a bad quarter." Even when there is a bad year or two (such as during coronavirus pandemic), the government will usually step in and offer generous tax credits to try to keep employees working.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#486
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But actually to have any employees companies need to optimize for workers lives anyway. And it seems that cooperatives are not any better in this area - otherwise everybody would work for cooperatives. There's much more at play than just "cooperatives are not any better". Cooperatives don't get as much funding from investors because investors won't be owning a larger share of them, and taking their returns, they in…

> There's much more at play than just "cooperatives are not any better". Cooperatives don't get as much funding from investors because investors won't be owning a larger share of them, and taking their returns, they instead invest in a traditional company because then they can extract as much as possible from their investments. Unions should put their money where their mouth is and invest in cooperatives.

Agreed! I vaguely recall SEIU doing just that.

Top hit from my casual search is a report containing case studies, two of which are SEIU.

A Union Toolkit for Cooperative Solutions [2021]

https://unioncoops.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/...

Also, Richard Wolff has been advocating worker directed social enterprises (WSDE, aka coops?) for a while. Sadly, his now dated arm wavy book doesn't is more advocacy than HOWTO.

Democracy at Work: A Cure for Capitalism [2012] https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-at-Work-Cure-Capitalism/dp/...

And his website is not very focused.

https://www.democracyatwork.info/

I'm fine with polemics (about marxism, socialism, capitalism). But I'm already convinced.

Now I just want concrete action steps.

Please share any other (better) resources and links.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#487
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's someone who can take blame to protect branding and is easily replaced.

Exactly; is someone who is essentially a replaceable scapegoat really worth millions per year in salary?

When company valuations are fundamentally based on "faith to perform well", yes. It's a product of touting a speculative economy as one of "rational actors". CEOs function as mythological heroes more than anything. So there's no number too high to pay since even their defeat can be incorporated into the ongoing myth of the brand. It's very strange to me.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#488
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But actually to have any employees companies need to optimize for workers lives anyway. And it seems that cooperatives are not any better in this area - otherwise everybody would work for cooperatives. There's much more at play than just "cooperatives are not any better". Cooperatives don't get as much funding from investors because investors won't be owning a larger share of them, and taking their returns, they in…

Capital markets has mostly two* components : Stocks and Bonds Investors don't need to own part of a company to buy a Bond, they just want to see good credit rating and yield. *VC is also part of capital markets but mostly private and such a small % of global investment.

New companies have no credit rating. Investors would never buy bonds sold by a new cooperative that needs a huge amount of capital to build a new semiconductor fab or something.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahhh yes, the old "because the market didn't turn out the way I wanted it to once, it means the entirety of the capitalist system and the idea of free markets is fundamentally broken" retort. I call this the "Jr. developer fallacy." Start a job, encounter some bugs, suggest rewriting the entire codebase from scratch on [insert-trendy-framework].

> once The many systemic market failure modes of capitalism are well documented and written about at great lengths.

The many systemic market failure modes of socialism and economic central planning are well documented and written about at great lengths.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#490
post #94

Employee stock options are not a new idea, obviously. If the story is "every company should offer stock options to its employees", then sure, that's often a good business plan. The reason not every company does it to all its employees is probably that for those employees, it wouldn't affect incentives much and it would make payment subject to the vagaries of the stock market. Your barista at Starbucks is not going to…

Something that is naturally selected is not necessarily good. Most of nature is horrible in fact. And everything we do is a fight against nature to make it better.

But instead of things like mandatory co-ops, rent caps, minimum wages, etc., could we get the same benefits from UBI instead? It's a much simpler welfare system.

It would be cool if I could live partially off of welfare and have my job be an unprofitable charity making free software, where even if I had stock it would be worthless. Such a public good cannot exist under capitalism alone, not even for-the-workers-colored capitalism.

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