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Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

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Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they could have, but why? What would be gained in hiring him to sit there and do nothing just because in the past he wrote some code that a company happened to find useful?

I thought the consensus was that he was extremely skilled, and he's obviously proven himself at making very useful tools for that system. Why not hire such talent and put it to some use? Not all positions need to have a lot of team interaction.

Why? Why hire him when you can just as easily hire someone else with all the same skills and a more suitable personality?

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's basically two kinds of pay gap: 1. Group A is literally paid less than Group B, for the same work. This is much less of an issue today than it used to be, but its still an issue. 2. Members of group A are promoted much less often than members of Group B, so while a Group A member in a high-earning position has commensurate pay to a member of Group B in the same position, there are simply fewer Group A members…

Women under represented at the highest management level is not specific to tech industry. It's seen across all industries.

So your argument has changed from "there is no pay gap" to "the pay gap is not unique to tech"?

Got any feelings about what true Scotsman do?

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The underlying debate is whether the disparity is due to choices or some sort of discrimination. It doesn’t look like a debate though. Pro-choice exclusively male crowd pulls the same argument with the stats from nordics again and again without going deeper into what do those numbers mean. There’s no plausible theory explaining why there’s no victim. On pro-discrimination side there’s plenty of arguments (usually co…

> Pro-choice exclusively male crowd It is by no means exclusively male. This is a completely baseless claim on your part. > There’s no plausible theory explaining why there’s no victim. Why is "women enjoy things other than technology" not a plausible theory? The percentage of women working in tech matches the percentage of women who major in it. The percentage of women who major in it matches the percentage of high…

> Why is "women enjoy things other than technology" not a plausible theory?

Because it doesn’t explain anything, stopping at that conclusion. It’s just “it is the way it is” sort of argument.

When you quote the statistics you are simply looking in the wrong direction. Thanks to anti-discrimination laws and affirmative action problem in recruiting isn’t that big as before. It was the most obvious and the easiest to fix.

Imagine a thought experiment: a group of people since childhood is taught that cats are better for them than dogs. They learn to love cats and stay away from dogs which are “for others”. In adulthood they are presented the opportunity to own a dog. There exist dog lover meetups and you can even get a puppy for free. How many people from that group will try to have a dog? Not many probably, because they just enjoy cats more.

This is what happens with gender inequality. Girls get dolls and join cheerleading teams. Social pressure requires them to learn about makeup and fashion, to socialize and to participate in housekeeping. Popular culture maintains stereotypes, social media define the acceptable behavior and punish those who don’t fit. Same happens to boys, of course. Not everyone who is subject to such pressure can grow as a person able to make a free choice. If we deprive children of the free choice, what is it if not gender discrimination?

And then there exists also drop-off possibility. Just today I learned about yet another case of harassment on the workplace in some big company. The victim complained to her manager about the behavior of their D-level superior but nothing happened, despite all the laws etc. Many women are subject to this regularly. How many of them will remain in the workforce for long despite such experience? How many will get promoted if they complain about such things? #metoo was a good start, but we are far from workplace being fixed. This naturally reduces the share of women on senior and management positions.

(Edit) necessary note: please do not expect me to explain it in full detail and with references. It is a huge topic, there exist books and numerous resources about it. I won’t be able to cover everything I know from learning or personal experience in a comment. Do your own research and try to dig deeper.

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In Japan the ratio might as well be zero. may change in the coming decade or 2. Late 2010's had Japan's version of the US 70's where women entered the workforce in droves. But COVID may or may not have stalled that phenomenon. I imagine they will bring in more women before they loosen their immigration policies.

Loosen them how? By importing poor, uneducated people and putting them to work as software engineers? Japan is already stupidly easy to immigrate to if you're an experienced software engineer, probably easier than any country in the world. The main obstacle is the language barrier, but there are a fair number of companies recruiting foreign engineers and offering workplaces that use English, because there's a huge sh…

> if you're an experienced software engineer

I am in a discussion about tech, but I was talking more in a general sense. They basically only let highly skilled personnel in and there's still quite a few stipulations with their Visa program.

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All choices involve sacrifices. > If she wanted to work or they wanted to hire someone to come in to help take care of the house/kids This comment is perfect illustration of sexism. You don’t even consider the option of father taking parental leave while the mother works. Why is it woman who must do the sacrifices? And of course the idea of hiring someone to come: this is not efficient and not scalable, so not a so…

> You don’t even consider the option of father taking parental leave while the mother works. Given what little we know of their situation, that would likely be a very stupid thing for them to do. Because most people do not make enough money to support a family on a single income, and he is fortunate enough to be making that much money now, it's unlikely that she would be able to do the same. It's also reasonable to a…

> I'm really not sure what that solution would look like though

I‘m living in the country where it more or less exists, though things are getting worse now. America is a very special country that is called developed despite many gaps in welfare system, but there are more successful examples. Let me enumerate the necessary policies:

1. Universal healthcare, tax-funded or statutory insurance - doesn’t matter. 2. Parental leave allowance of minimum 2-3 years for each parent, tax benefits for businesses to hire temporary substitution. 3. Parental leave benefits covering at least 12-18 months that are higher if both parents take the leave, defined as a percentage of salary. Ideally must cover the period until the child goes to kindergarten. 4. Free kindergarten at walkable distance (ok, for America could be reasonable travel distance), free full day schools, free university education (German style) that does not require students to work a lot and allows for parental leave. 5. Labor code that enforces 35-40 hour work, sufficiently high minimum wage and disincentivizes overtime/second work for parents. 6. Most importantly, cost of living must be primary KPI for the government. Property prices and rent contribute a lot to it, so the investment bubble must be accurately deflated (that’s a separate story how, and America is again very special here, so it’s more like a long term idea).

Overall, the policies must be designed with the lifetime journey of a typical family/couple/single professional in mind (CJM is a good tool). Observe. Analyze. Identify and eliminate barriers. Don’t break what works, don’t impose certain ways of living etc.

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are lucky one to have happy family. Do you think your example is a good argument in gender equality discussion? Why my comment above triggered your response?

I think saying women like her are enslaved is itself misogyny. She has agency. She's the one who pushed for our setup (I probably would've done grad school for math or physics and tried to go the academic route if we hadn't met). My reply is to illustrate that you're thinking about people like us wrong: she didn't make a sacrifice to be a homemaker; she's not pining to go work in an office. I make the sacrifice by wo…

> I think saying women like her are enslaved is itself misogyny

Fully agree. I would not change anything in my comment above nevertheless. It is not about the women who have and make the choice. We are not in the world yet, where this would be the default assumption.

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#487
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I’ve noticed is that there are companies that care to be inclusive. It’s an active undertaking, not a passive one. That is a failure, you don't need to actively be inclusive if the problem is solved. See doctors for example, in my country kids ask if men can be doctors since they see them so rarely, the "women aren't doctors" thing has been solved, there is no need to do anything at that point except try to en…

The best SRE team I was ever on beat the industry averages for gender equity. We had 50% women, including a Black woman, and a trans woman. Our hiring practices actively surfaced people who had difficulty being considered and retained on other teams and at other companies. This concept of being inclusive is a lot different than having biases. We didn’t reject men or anything like that, we just made ourselves more vis…

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Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think saying women like her are enslaved is itself misogyny. She has agency. She's the one who pushed for our setup (I probably would've done grad school for math or physics and tried to go the academic route if we hadn't met). My reply is to illustrate that you're thinking about people like us wrong: she didn't make a sacrifice to be a homemaker; she's not pining to go work in an office. I make the sacrifice by wo…

> I think saying women like her are enslaved is itself misogyny Fully agree. I would not change anything in my comment above nevertheless. It is not about the women who have and make the choice. We are not in the world yet, where this would be the default assumption.

At least in the US, according to [0], around 67% of women with children under 18 who are not employed prefer that. Among women with children, a higher proportion of women who do work would prefer not to than the proportion of women who do not work and would prefer to. It appears that most women with children have the working status that they prefer, but if you had to guess that someone was unhappy about their situation, it would be a working mom. Additionally, most moms do not have a preference to work outside the home.

Keep in mind this is after decades of messaging of the type I'm pointing out and people are exemplifying in this very thread after I pointed it out where women who stay at home are questioned about whether they're "accomplished" and generally looked down upon by the middle/upper middle class.

[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer...

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s your theory?

The obvious one, right? The one that doesn't require me to make arguments (not that you made one) like "well programming means arguing with a compiler and mathematics means arguing with other mathematicians which is a more humane activity". I tend towards explanations of things that don't involve software developers being a unique, distinct species of cognitive entity, probably because (like you, I assume) I've spent…

I thought this thread was dead, and the topic is cursed besides that, but since this comment is obliquely referencing mine, I’ll post this: the two most prestigious white-collar fields are medicine and law, which both used to be more male-centric than programming ever was, and in those fields we see a steady upward trend of participation by women over the past few decades.

I've only talked to 0.001% of programmers. But of them, in my experience, they tend to not look into your eyes when they talk to you. I’m a programmer, and I got a lot worse about eye contact around the same time I really got into programming. If the software developers you work with all make good eye contact, I'm sure I won't convince you that devs are any different, except to say --

All professions affect the body differently! My dad is a chef. He's got the rounded shoulders and the chubby fingers of a chef. Julia Child, Jacques Pepin, Gordon Ramsay -- they have all got the same "look," because they spent so much time hovering over a cutting board. My dad makes fun of my "skinny little fingers." What I'm saying is that programmers get the same kind of thing, but on their minds.

I don’t have any axe to grind. I’m as certain that women and men are equally as smart, as I am that programmers aren’t any smarter than any other white-collar profession. But something is making undergraduate women drop CS 101, but that didn't also make them drop pre-law in the 90s, or pre-med in the 80s, even in the face of CS compensation approximately doubling in the mid-late 2010s.

Re: Girls in Tech closes its doors after 17 years

#490
post #453
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for responding. Here’s what I mean about proofs. I learned how to do them in college, and in the early classes we got a lot of leeway on grading, and then as we moved up they expected more and more rigor. But it was still a conversation, like if I got dinged a few points on an exam question, I could take it to my professor and make my argument that my proof was valid, and I might get a point or two back. The p…

> I learned how to do them in college ... I have the opposite experience: when learning physics, math was really difficult to negotiate with the professor, because it is mathematically correct or not. They had their table that said "if they have done this, X points, otherwise 0", which is an exactly equivalent system as the one where your grade corresponds to the number of test your software passes. It was easier to…

Thanks again for responding. You gave me a lot to think about. It seems like there isn’t much daylight between our positions, and in any case I’m sure nobody else is reading, so I’ll wrap it up here for any future spelunkers.

I think I’m on solid ground asserting that it’s common knowledge that most proofs have errors. The reason is that professional mathematicians tell us so. Here’s Terry Tao: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/advice-on-writing-papers/proo.... Notice how Tao acknowledges that papers “full of errors” are sometimes not corrected before publication. What does that mean for proofs which have only one minor error, and referees less exacting than Terry Tao?

Chapter 7 of Simon Singh’s book on Fermat’s Last Theorem is also illustrative (Singh liberally quotes from his sources directly so there is no question about what the mathematicians thought). After Wiles submitted his manuscript to Inventiones Mathematicae, the referees began finding mistakes almost immediately and were in constant communication with Wiles to get them corrected. Wiles worked on his proof for seven years; nobody thought there was anything wrong with his manuscript having a lot of errors. How probable is it that we found every error in the Wiles proof?

Here’s a good MathOverflow question on the topic: https://mathoverflow.net/questions/338607/why-doesnt-mathema.... Lots of good responses, and links. What stands out to me is that none of the top answers say “that’s just not true.” Instead those answers about why math proofs “work” even though they’re not completely, rigorously, “correct.”

My big point is that in math, some mistakes are trivial, and others are serious. The job of determining which is which is a job for humans — as you point out! — because it’s a topic for conference talks. But in programming, humans don’t decide how serious a mistake is — the computer does, by what it does. Typo in a code comment? No worries. Typo in a variable name? Broken program. If you abbreviate Norway to NOR in your YAML file, that’s cool. Abbreviate it to NO, and there goes your afternoon (because YAML translates NO to false). It’s the capriciousness, not the difficulty, that separates how people learn the two fields.

Debuggers, code review, and testing environments are primarily professional tools — they aren’t used by learners. By the time a learner of programming gets those tools, the damage is already done; they’re already weirdos, conditioned to accept the output of the computer no matter how capricious, and rewrite their code however it takes to get their programs to work, even if it doesn’t “make sense.”

> I'm sure if you even have an example of such not-fixed-error, you have absolutely no idea how it was treated later by the scientific community.

I don’t know what you’re trying to assert. I’m part of the scientific community. Yes, I’ve written code based on proofs that turned out to have flaws, and then I went and updated the code. The most fun one to talk about would be this one from 2006: https://research.google/blog/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-n...

Anyway thanks again for reading. I had a lot of fun writing up these comments & reading what folks and had to say.

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