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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#481

Post by mr_toad »

nkoren wrote: post #389
kevin42 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of our cats was very old (18+) and sick. We made the choice to have her euthanized to end her suffering and the vet came to our house to do it. One of our other (male) cats loved her and always tried to cuddle her. My wife took the old kitty out of the room where they were cuddling, and after it was done she thought she would let him say goodbye. He got very upset at my wife and hissed at her for days. He's norma…

A friend of mine had two kittens -- siblings, who were very close to each other. One of them was hit by a car and killed. I had adored this kitten, so in memory of her I did a chalk drawing portrait of the kitten, and brought it over to my friend as gift, about a week after the kitten had died. The surviving sibling had, during that time, seemed somewhat morose and unresponsive, but also kind of cryptic in the way th…

Cats seem far more likely to react to hearing a cat on TV than seeing it.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#483

Post by mr_toad »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #137
lolinder wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

But most humans would have a more complex theory of the mind - they’d realise who would get the blame when the lights were turned back on.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#484

Post by mr_toad »

slibhb wrote: post #120
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

> And are all animals conscious? Amoebas? Virions? Bacteria?

Single celled organisms, and multicellular organisms that lack nervous systems seem to be severely limited in intelligence. I think that anyone who argues against intelligence being closely correlated with the complexity of the organisms neural network is arguing against mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#485

Post by mr_toad »

hnfong wrote: post #231
czl wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first animal in orbit was Laika, a Soviet space dog. She was launched aboard Sputnik 2 on November 3, 1957. The first animals in space were fruit flies, launched by the United States aboard a V-2 rocket on February 20, 1947.

I wonder whether some large asteroid hit the earth and blasted some poor animal into space some millions of years ago...

Tiny spiders can float high enough in the air that it might be possible for some to be carried beyond the Karman line.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#486

Post by poikroequ »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #155
poikroequ wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe consciousness started off simple but evolved to become much more complex. Like how eyesight began with simple photosensitive cells.

Even if I agree, I still have trouble seeing how simple photosensitive cells evolved into even a simplified view[0]. If you see what I mean. 0. https://www.aao.org/eye-health/anatomy/parts-of-eye

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#487

Post by jarjoura »

Research also suggests that we only domesticated ourselves 40-50k years ago. Language and culture are fairly recent additions in our evolution and so when people start comparing how we understand the world, to that of other mammals, I struggle to find it fair.

I do try hard not to anthropomorphize my dog, but the little dude is very clever, and I just can't help but consider him conscious on some level. Him and I definitely have a way of communicating with each other without using sentences, so I know he's self-aware far more than I would have given dogs credit before he came into my life.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#488

Post by RunSet »

qup wrote: post #468
ninetyninenine wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People identifying as rationalists are also often misguided. It’s a common trope among programmers who think they’re smart and think their intelligence leads to them being logical and unbiased. I hate to break it to you but if you think you’re smart most likely you are more biased than normal.

If a person were actually smart, what would you expect their opinion of their own intelligence to be?

https://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/WhatIsIntelligenceA...

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#489

Post by shinycode »

jaharios wrote: post #424
shinycode wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My cat can’t comprehend code written on my screen and the world that is internet. Maybe other being exists and our notion of intelligence would collapse the same way a cat can’t possibly understand what internet is. Compared to them, would we be conscious beings ? Would they consider us conscious beings ?

>My cat can’t comprehend code written on my screen and the world that is internet. My grandma is the same.

Your grandma can comprehend but maybe don’t want to. We know humans are equipped with what’s needed to comprehend. Or maybe some humans might never comprehend some things and it raises the question : « does all humans have the same consciousness ? ».

My take is organic breathing = consciousness. There may be different levels of it. Otherwise it’s like trying to say all colors can be trimmed down to two values, black and white. There is a variety of consciousness and the definition we try to make of it orient the whole debate. It will never be the same between humans and animals but it doesn’t mean because it’s not human it doesn’t exists.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#490

Post by taneq »

cupcakecommons wrote: post #431
sdenton4 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'll title my memoir: "Drunk people are p-zombies, and other facts I learned on the Internet."

Is someone under twilight anesthesia or in a deep k-hole approaching the state of being a p-zombie? I would think so. Maybe I misunderstand the definition of p-zombie?

A p-zombie is something that looks and acts indistinguishably from a person, but doesn’t have an internal consciousness, ie. it provides sensory data, remembers past events, and exhibits behaviour, but it doesn’t “feel” or “experience” anything. A heavily sedated person who’s barely conscious is just a regular ol’ zombie.
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