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Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

amazingcto.com

481–490 of 662 posts

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#481
post #107
post #70

>, Paul Graham came up with the thought, that the EU forces companies to have cookie banners. There is no law for cookie banners. [...] Companies could easily avoid any cookie banner. Just don’t track. KingOfCoders/amazingcto, of course you are technically correct but Paul Graham wasn't talking about the letter of the law. Instead, you have to interpret his complaint with the lens of game theory . I.e. The Law of Uni…

Doesn't that argument work both ways? If you interpret the EU's regulation with the "lens of game theory", it is an unintended consequence of aggressive corporate data collection. Not sure why it makes sense to complain about the EU and not the companies.

Because the companies are getting what they want (data on users), but the regulation is not getting what it wants (no tracking or informed tracking).

I don't know if this mini-competition between regulators and companies is truly zero-sum, there could be some way to get everyone something they want. But with the current regulation, it is zero-sum, and the companies are winning and the EU is losing. And the EU "works for you", so of course you can complain to them.

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#482
post #17

Imagine a market in which companies charge a lot of hidden fees behind their customers' back, and users are not happy when they realize after the fact. The law is updated to say you are not allowed to charge the user a fee unless you tell him in advance. Companies with tons of hidden fees decide to keep them but force you to read all the fees on every page of the menu before you can see the rest of the text, in the m…

I agree with almost everything you said, except for one thing: I don't believe the euphemism "hidden fees" helps to clarify the fact that these people are taking money away from people without their knowledge or explicit consent. We have other more precise words to describe that action. I asked ChatGPT what those could be, here's its answer: Q: What are some english words meaning "taking money away from people withou…

We here are all interested in hearing your thoughts, so please filter raw chatbot output through them, rather than pasting the output verbatim, which isn't value-added, and can even be negative value, given chatbots' penchant for hallucinating information.

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#483
post #407
post #17

Imagine a market in which companies charge a lot of hidden fees behind their customers' back, and users are not happy when they realize after the fact. The law is updated to say you are not allowed to charge the user a fee unless you tell him in advance. Companies with tons of hidden fees decide to keep them but force you to read all the fees on every page of the menu before you can see the rest of the text, in the m…

Except you could always just "turn off fees" in the browser, so the whole conflict seems kind of superfluous.

Except you can't because the in-browser fees are only one of many possible fees you could be charged.

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it does not work both ways. The roles of governments and corporations are not symmetric. > > Good regulation is regulation that has good outcomes. [...] You don't seem to explain what the role of corporations is or what a good corporation looks like. If these things are not symmetric, you need to finish your explanation of why or how they aren't. Corporations and the whole of property rights only exist because…

Governments are supposed to represent the whole of society. The justification for their policies is ideally based on democratic legitimacy. No entity outside of government can possibly have that legitimacy. In my opinion it is not audacious at all to reject the idea that corporations should intentionally pursue societal goals or claim to act out of a sense of duty. Of course we want the effect of what corporations do…

> In my opinion it is not audacious at all to reject the idea that corporations should intentionally pursue societal goals or claim to act out of a sense of duty.

I still find it somewhat silly to reject the idea that a corporation (run by human beings) shouldn't intentionally be evil for the sake of maximizing profit, but I do understand that this is a fairly common Friedman-esque point of view.

But, even so, I guess "duty" was the wrong word for me to use. I more meant that if a corporation does NOT benefit society, we should expect the corporation to stop existing. So, in that sense, there's a "duty" (existential requirement) to benefit society.

> Of course we want the effect of what corporations do to be of net benefit to society as a whole. But this cannot be based on their intentions or sense of duty. It has to be based on the systemic effects of them pursuing their own (possibly enlightened) self interest within the framework of the law. > > It is for governments to make sure that these effects are beneficial and to intervene when they are not. So the asymmetry I see is that capitalism is a tool of society, not the other way around.

I feel like you're circling back around to almost disagree with yourself. Several comments back in this thread someone made a point about "unintended consequences" of the law and applying "game theory" logic to it, and another commenter replied that the companies in question could also have seen the law coming if they misbehaved too badly. That commenter asked if the "game theory" logic shouldn't go both ways, and that we should then blame the corporations for the regulation because the government is just doing what governments do.

You replied that the argument does NOT go both ways because the roles of government and corporations are not symmetric.

But, what you're arguing here seems to be consistent with the view that the "unintended consequences" and "game theory" logic DOES go both ways. You acknowledge that it is a government's duty to intervene when corporations are not benefiting society, and you also say that corporations will pursue their own self-interest within the framework of the law.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but the only way I can resolve this asymmetry in my mind is to have a framework where corporations doing things that are bad for society is okay, because the government is supposed to stop them; but if the government is unable to fully stop them from being bad, then it's STILL not the corporation's fault, but the government's...

It just sounds like we've gotten lost in the abstractions of corporations and governments. At the end of the day, these are decisions being made by fellow sentient human beings, and if a corporation's humans make some evil decision, I refuse to let them off the hook with "well, free markets" and "they have no choice but to maximize profits".

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#485
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what a nightmare internet is in Europe I live in Europe; I don't experience this "nightmare". Would you care to expand?

Sure. The nightmare is that every single time you open the browser on a website you have to go through the data tracking preference for that website. It's a lot of work to avoid being tracked (companies are obviously using dark patterns there) and when you do it 20 times a day it gets frustrating quickly and collectively a big waste of human time. Now I am not saying the US doesn't have a problem. They just don't hav…

> every single time you open the browser on a website you have to go through the data tracking preference for that website

This is not my experience. Perhaps the websites you favour are exceptionally abusive.

> a way for me to broadcast my willingness to share my data

That's the opposite of what most people want to broadcast.

> But the GDPR does not cover that and allows websites to drive you crazy

Apparently your view is that GDPR should not allow that, i.e. it isn't strict enough. I'm inclined to agree.

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#486
Just imagine someone in the supermarket following you all the time, writing down all of your actions. That's pretty creepy and that's why you have to give consent first. I have no idea why anyone thought it's normal when done online. Or to extend it to the offline world just because it's technical easy. That's all the cookie banner is doing - showing how creepy many companies are and how much they don't care about you personally.

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#487
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. How much corporate propaganda are people consuming that legislators are seen as wholly responsible for the bad behavior and malicious compliance actions of corporations? What does it say about the relationship between businesses and consumers that the first response to this bad behavior is to shout "look what you made them do!" Seemingly it is everyone's fault except the bad actors themselves.

> How much corporate propaganda are people consuming that legislators are seen as wholly responsible for the bad behavior and malicious compliance actions of corporations Why do I need to be "consuming corporate propaganda" when I just hate that I need to dismiss banners on every news website, when I didn't have to before the regulation? I don't care about being tracked. But now that all websites need to cover their…

Get a plugin to click that button for you, I got one and haven't seen such a banner in a really long time now.

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#488
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. How much corporate propaganda are people consuming that legislators are seen as wholly responsible for the bad behavior and malicious compliance actions of corporations? What does it say about the relationship between businesses and consumers that the first response to this bad behavior is to shout "look what you made them do!" Seemingly it is everyone's fault except the bad actors themselves.

> How much corporate propaganda are people consuming that legislators are seen as wholly responsible for the bad behavior and malicious compliance actions of corporations Why do I need to be "consuming corporate propaganda" when I just hate that I need to dismiss banners on every news website, when I didn't have to before the regulation? I don't care about being tracked. But now that all websites need to cover their…

The experience you describe is the fault of websites which chose to make things that way. The article goes into more detail on this point: There Is No Cookie Banner Law.

It's important to note that we didn't have to go through the banners after the law, either. We only had to go through them after website operators intentionally picked the most disruptive and annoying popup to serve us. We can blame them. They chose to add it when they could have legally not added anything at all.

It's like the situation described here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39742766

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#489
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. "strictly necessary cookies" are allowed without consent (but information on their use must be available). Examples for what that means given by the EU itself [1] include "cookies that allow web shops to hold your items in your cart while you are shopping". And on the policing - there are a lot of laws that cannot be "policed". It requires trust, goodwill, collaboration and savy users to report viola…

How do you know if a site has used a cookie they said was functional to track you?

It doesn't matter because that's the law and if you don't follow it you risk a fine.

How do you know if your neighbour is not producing meth in his basement?

Re: Dear Paul Graham, there is no cookie banner law

#490
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that most people don't want to be tracked: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/facebook-adverti...

The problem is that most people don't want to pay for any of the internet services they use either.

Any internet services that are unable to secure funding without abusing their users are welcome to stop existing.
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