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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#481

Post by mh- »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #472
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

(Sorry for the meta-question, but I'm not sure where better to post this.) There's a sibling comment by @xtracto that's marked "[dead]", but IMO shouldn't be. Is there any normal means of appealing that status without bothering the admins?

You can click into the comment and then hit vouch if that is available to you. It's near the flag link.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#482

Post by mcntsh »

password54321 wrote: post #449
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

Most "leetcode" questions they ask are just easy level programming puzzles. The fact that many developers seem to hate it and even struggle with it says more about the developers applying than it does about Google.

The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong.

Also it's funny that engineers leaving Google, Amazon, et all NEED to practice these skills in order to get other roles because it just shows that these skills aren't needed (read: exercised, grown) working in their day-to-day jobs.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#483

Post by CoastalCoder »

password54321 wrote: post #449
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

Most "leetcode" questions they ask are just easy level programming puzzles. The fact that many developers seem to hate it and even struggle with it says more about the developers applying than it does about Google.

> Most "leetcode" questions they ask are just easy level programming puzzles.

As a senior developer currently looking for work, I have mixed feelings about leetcode-like questions. Here's my take:

Pro: They rule out most/all applicants who lack basic programming competence.

Con: Any timed or live programming test can make some applicants fail because of performance anxiety.

Pro/con: Some of the problems require (a) very high intelligence or (b) familiarity with how people have solved that specific problem in the past.

I think (b) is a major source of complaints, because for most people the only solution is Leetcode grinding, which outside of the interview process isn't a good use of one's professional development time.

Con: At least for timed problems on Hackerrank, you have a dilemma: A simple, straightforward solution takes little time to code, and is easy to explain. But it might also take too long to run on some of the test cases, which then requires you to guess at the source of slowness, and try to fix it.

But in multi-problem Hackerrank tests, you don't necessarily know if you have enough time to do that, because the other problems in the set might or might not require lots of time as well. And you can't revisit an earlier problem once you've submitted a solution.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#484

Post by password54321 »

mcntsh wrote: post #482
password54321 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most "leetcode" questions they ask are just easy level programming puzzles. The fact that many developers seem to hate it and even struggle with it says more about the developers applying than it does about Google.

The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong. Also it's funny that engineers leaving Google, Amazon, et all NEED to practice these skills in order to get other roles because it just shows that these skills aren't needed (read: exercised, grown) working in their day-to-day jobs.

>The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong.

Wrong about what? That they are easy? If you know binary search, sorting, sets, hash tables, recursion then it is easy. If you wanted to make it more aligned with what a developer does day to day the alternative is doing a small project in your own time which is more time consuming for everyone.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#485

Post by cvhashim04 »

throwaway13394 wrote: post #442

I work in Core Eng at google. Woke up this morning and saw my director - who we all loved and had been at Google for 20 years - is gone. One concerning thing that I haven't seen reported is that my leadership chain is almost entirely Indian, all the way up. And they've announced that they are starting to offshore entire core products to India, primarily in bangalore IIUC.

On visa? Curious because that makes a big difference.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#486

Post by CoastalCoder »

mcntsh wrote: post #482
password54321 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most "leetcode" questions they ask are just easy level programming puzzles. The fact that many developers seem to hate it and even struggle with it says more about the developers applying than it does about Google.

The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong. Also it's funny that engineers leaving Google, Amazon, et all NEED to practice these skills in order to get other roles because it just shows that these skills aren't needed (read: exercised, grown) working in their day-to-day jobs.

> The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong.

I'm not sure that logic alone is a compelling: It's conceivable that this secondary industry addresses a real gap in university curricula, or a need for ongoing training of experienced developers.

But I think your overall point still holds, because there's a consensus that a large number of Leetcode-like puzzles require familiarity with problems and solutions that hardly every come up in real professional software development, and aren't even good proxies for the abilities that do matter.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#487

Post by CoastalCoder »

mh- wrote: post #481
CoastalCoder wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Sorry for the meta-question, but I'm not sure where better to post this.) There's a sibling comment by @xtracto that's marked "[dead]", but IMO shouldn't be. Is there any normal means of appealing that status without bothering the admins?

You can click into the comment and then hit vouch if that is available to you. It's near the flag link.

Ah, thank you. I assumed that if I was able to vouch for a comment, I could do so from the tree view.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#488

Post by tivert »

sz4kerto wrote: post #209
otikik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical. The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotio…

> I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical.

> The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotions, and there are managers who're not psychopats and find it very hard to e.g. let people go.

> ...

> But please don't think that nobody cares about you in your workplace and you're a completely fungible cog. It's a horrible life to live. Let's not tell the already cynical young people that this is how the world works.

That's true, but the problem is the psychopathic organization exploits those relationships ruthlessly. It will use well-meaning people to lean on those relationships to get more out of employees, but then turn around and shit on them when it suits the org.

Corporations can be and (and usually are) psychopaths, even if they're made exclusively from well-adjusted, interpersonally-kind people. The whole is different from its parts.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#489

Post by saiya-jin »

hiq wrote: post #384
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

Have you actually every talked about code and architecture to another peer? If levels are cca same it quickly becomes an effortless exercise where ideas flow quickly and topics are immediately picked up. Lets call it brainstorming.

Why can't we repeat that in interview? I don't care if some dev can code some method names or detailed algorithms from his head, when it takes 3 seconds to find exact solution. In other words, there is little real added value from such a skill. You get much better peek into somebody's head with above - but it requires significantly more effort on interviewee's side, heck maybe even some preparation.

You can to certain extent hack leetcode process by just doing leetcode. Its much harder to be verbally fluent about designs, concepts and libraries that you never used. And for the rest, there is a trial period, you can't skip that 3 months experience and cram it into interviews.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#490

Post by kyrra »

ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

I joined Google 11 years into my career. So while I had taken an algorithms class recently, I just reread the algorithm book I used in college and spent a bunch of time studying all of them. I actually found it a lot of fun, as it was a good refresher for myself.
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