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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#481

Post by PeterisP »

llm_nerd wrote: post #254
yk wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technology is roughly 10 years behind, but in the scenario that the replacement capability becomes important is something like Trump fumbles the great power competition and US and China have a nice nuclear moment. And frankly making do with Haswell era CPUs is lamentable but as far as nuclear exchanges go not that bad.

Older generation fabs are critical. They power most of the machines around us, and often pump out low priced but capable chips. I certainly am not contesting that. I responded to someone who seems to believe this is the great AI equalizer. This fab has no relevance to AI. And FWIW, Europe already has a number of much more advanced fabs! Intel is currently upgrading Ireland to "Intel 4" spec (which in TSMC land would…

The way I see it, things like that are critical for long term capability maintenance; having or not having fabs for mass production of simpler chips is what determines whether your country will have a workforce which would make it possible to build and run a cutting edge fab later; if you keep offshoring the cheap and simple stuff, eventually the state of art stuff goes there as well.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#482

Post by flohofwoe »

timeon wrote: post #466
qiqitori wrote: post #447

Why are there so many somewhat toxic comments on this article?

It is about Fab that is not in native Anglosphere. Some bias is expected on Anglosphere site even if the news is not about something ground-breaking.

It's also all coming together: it's about Germany, which a lot of Europeans don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly), then it's about East Germany which a lot of West Germans don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly), and finally it's also about the EU's / Germany's governing model which most startup-scene-hipsters on HN don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly).

There's hardly a topic like this where almost everybody finds something to complain about ;)

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#483

Post by flohofwoe »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #351
rojosewe wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's referring to the difference in wealth between East and West Germany which is arguably the cause of many political and social issues in Germany. The influx of money into the region could reduce the disparity. My guess is that you are referring to the difference in wealth between India and Germany. I'm not sure that the pearl clutching was helpful. It would have been better to clarify your assumptions or If indeed…

> The influx of money into the region could reduce the disparity. Money in the region would help but I don't see it happening since Poland is just a few km away and a more lucrative target for attracting investments from west Germany due to having less red tape, and lower taxes and regulations. East Germany can't compete with that so it seems it be forever be this "desert" in between west Germany and Poland where nob…

Bavaria is right next to the Czech Republic and should have the same problems, yet isn't exactly a 'desert' as you call it.

Large scale outsourcing (and investments) to Poland, the Czech Republic and the rest of Eastern Europe had already happened during the 90s, after that it was China. Everything that can be outsourced in Germany has already been outsourced during the last 30 years, yet the sky hasn't fallen so far.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#484

Post by knallfrosch »

dragonelite wrote: post #438

Like with the Arizona fab question where will they find the skilled workers? Putting up four walls and a roof, with some chip fabbing equipment doesn't make an efficient fabrication location. When you have American TSMC worker complain about long shift hours i imaging it wouldn't be any better in Europe for TSMC. This feels more like TSMC grabbing from subsidies pots where it can hoping this will please the NATO nati…

Dresden is already home to Globalfoundries, Bosch and Infineon.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#486

Post by ryukoposting »

Tade0 wrote: post #479
ryukoposting wrote: post #424

I think folks here are missing the point of a fab like this. 16nm FinFET is space age technology by embedded systems standards. Nobody's expecting CPUs as advanced as Sandy Bridge to come out of this fab, let alone some bazillion-core 8GHz monster. The smallest transistor used in an STM32xx chip today is 40nm, and AFAIK that's reserved for the really fancy DSP chips.

Yeah. Up until recently my friend was employed in designing chips in this process. But it's not like they're designing them exactly the same way as years ago - some advancements are not strictly related to feature size and IIRC these new-old chips are considerably more power-efficient.

Certainly true, a 40nm transistor made in 2013 is not the same as one made in 2023. Likewise, a 16nm transistor made in 2017 will not be the same as one in 2027. The power efficiency on the newer wireless SoCs is unreal.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#487

Post by flohofwoe »

logifail wrote: post #340
_Microft wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The focus on electronics there goes back to the times of the GDR already when the "VEB Kombinat Robotron" was located in Saxony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron

> The focus on electronics there [..] Can you expand on this claim? (I'm deliberately resisting quoting sources listing German regions top exports!)

TL;DR at the end of the 80's East Germany had paradoxically a more capable semiconductor industry than West Germany (not in terms of innovation, it trailed the state of the art by 5..10 years, but definitely in terms of scale), this was mainly because the Eastern Bloc was cut off from western microelectronics because of the COCOM embargo and had to bootstrap their own microelectronics industry, while Western Europe could just buy their chips on the world market from the cheapest bidder.

Those centers of technology with their attached universities were mainly located in Dresden (Robotron) and Jena (Carl Zeiss) and some smaller locations sprinkled over the southern half of East Germany.

This 'micro-electronics tradition' carried over into the 90's after the reunification and continues until the present time.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#488

Post by zaph0d_ »

dav_Oz wrote: post #178

For those unfamiliar with the region (Saxony, Dresden): A registered association ( e.V. in German) bluntly named "Silicon Saxony e.V." (est. in 2000) with over 450 members headquartered in Dresden pretty much sums up the infrastructure and ambition.[0][1] As pointed out the process TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology (fabrication will begin in 2027) is not "cutting edge" b…

The region was an excellent choice for me to get my education. It was easy to get a research assistant position throughout my studies at the various academic institutions and then advance to my career from there. Cost of living is still quite cheap compared to other metropolitan areas. Only thing that is missing is more bold risk-taking on new startups. Also the horrendous bureaucracy makes things slow-moving.

Otherwise they have everything they would need for a great hub. Smart and well educated students. A great university and cultural scene.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#489

Post by MaxPro91 »

knallfrosch wrote: post #484
dragonelite wrote: post #438

Like with the Arizona fab question where will they find the skilled workers? Putting up four walls and a roof, with some chip fabbing equipment doesn't make an efficient fabrication location. When you have American TSMC worker complain about long shift hours i imaging it wouldn't be any better in Europe for TSMC. This feels more like TSMC grabbing from subsidies pots where it can hoping this will please the NATO nati…

Dresden is already home to Globalfoundries, Bosch and Infineon.

And NXP too (albeit relatively small site)

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#490

Post by zambal »

flohofwoe wrote: post #482
timeon wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about Fab that is not in native Anglosphere. Some bias is expected on Anglosphere site even if the news is not about something ground-breaking.

It's also all coming together: it's about Germany, which a lot of Europeans don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly), then it's about East Germany which a lot of West Germans don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly), and finally it's also about the EU's / Germany's governing model which most startup-scene-hipsters on HN don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly). There's hardly a topic…

> Germany, which a lot of Europeans don't have a positive opinion on (to put it mildly)

Do you have a source for that, because that's not the impression I, as a non German European, have.

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