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French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone is a catalyst, I don't see how it logically and necessarily follows that 100% of the causal responsibility falls on them. This seems objectively reductive and represents ideological beliefs as objective facts. Maybe the masses are upset and this is a sign of things to come, that should be listened to.

Myself, I'm a peaceful guy, if every protest I called (assuming I'm a "leader" of cause $INSERT_CAUSE_HERE ) resulted in violence, I would not call any more protests because that would go against my personal values. So it's hard to believe a group is peaceful if every time they have a protest it turns into a riot.

Would you be okay with being jailed for destruction of property because of a protest you organised that was co-opted by bad actors?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that is easy to contemplate. You have extenuating and aggravating circumstances (things that make the situation worse or better for the defendant) And on top of that you have a window for sentencing. So if murder is lets say 4-20 years in jail. And you were drunk, that makes it worse, but it was not premeditated, and this and that it all adds up and you might 6 years or you might get 18 depending on the circum…

> You have extenuating and aggravating circumstances You do; but that's not actually what I was thinking about. That's just about sentencing, and here (the UK) sentencing doesn't fall within the purview of precedent; there are sentencing guidelines set by senior members of the judiciary. I was thinking of actual points of law, such as what constitutes unreasonable behaviour, or whether possession of some quantity X o…

> I was thinking of actual points of law, such as what constitutes unreasonable behaviour, or whether possession of some quantity X of illegal drugs is conclusive evidence of intent to supply.

In Roman judiciary those are usually part of the law as written. So instead of having a law about "unresonable behaviour", you have a law explicitely stating that "making noise above X db at night is illegal" or "drinking in the street is illegal" etc. So the idea of what constitutes intent to supply is based on quantity, anything below X grams is personal use etc.

And you can always add aggravating circumstances that "promote" a crime, so you can have such thing as intent to supply counts having drugs and X amount of money on you, or X amount of drugs and leaflets saying you sell etc. In other words you can explicitely state the kind of things judiciary precedent would probably take into account ahead of time.

> The very old precedents are presumably precedents that make so much sense that nobody has successfully challenged them.

Or the higher courts have not taken a case that challanges them. I am not sure about the UK but in the US, the supreme court pretty much picks their cases which means they can arguably allow for dangerous precedent to stay as long as needed by avoiding cases they know would present a resonable chance of overturning. Or equally dangerous oversee cases that maliciously try to overturn positive precedent.

Also the process is slow, tedious and many times expensive. Going back to Townshed v Townshed, it is a case where a will was overturned because a man freed his slaves and his family said that was proof he was mentally unwell to change his will. This, again, is still being cited when overturning wills or when contesting changes late in life. I cannot possibly imagine a more obviously outdated precedent than a judge thinking freeing slaves means you are insane, and yet...

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a fan of Melenchon. I find problematic his taste for the Bolivarian alliance, or his defense of Cuba. I find problematic the lack of democracy in his political party. But a new constitution with more democracy is still one of the center piece of his political agenda, and the political agenda of his party. That is not the case of any other major party I think. And there is no reason to believe his party would…

His views about a new constitution with more democracy are worthless to me, as I see him as a bad faith actor, exploiting the usual populist tactics such as permanent outrage, inflammatory discourse, obstruction of debates, conflictualization of everything, exacerbating existing social tensions, defining democracy around concepts like "the revolution", "the people", etc. How is it not obvious to everyone? It's obviou…

To me your first sentence basically describe so many politicians on the French political scene from all parties ! (except for the "revolution" part which I am deeply surprise to read here) So why do you have such focus on Melanchon ?

Melenchon is not alone, he is with a party with many different people, deagreing on some subject, but tending to agree on a new "more democratic" constitution. Furthermore he would need to ally with other parties, like the Green, who have a strong democracy and pro-democracy tradition.

Furthermore Melanchon himself will probably "retire", does your argument still stand when he goes, or is this FRance Insoumise that scares you ?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, democracy is not 0 or 1, there are shades... So for sure Macron is not a dictator, but French democracy "grade" was not super high and it did went down. French 5th republic is sometimes nicknamed "presidential monarchy"... Electing the parliament quite at the same time as the president did reinforced the power of the president. The rise of the far right basically made that the one in the best position against f…

Of course most of the workers are against working for two more years with benefit for themselves.

Many people where against 35 hour workweek, more people where supporting the previous Macron attempt to make people work longer (but was seen as more fair, including to number 1 union)...

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#485
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have you organised illegal activities through encrypted chat communications If I did, why in hells name would I tell you? Why would you ask that in the first place? To catch out the incredibly dumb terrorists?

If you lie, they can either put you in prison or deport you if you are not a citizen.

If I lie, and they can prove that I lied (e.g. I organized illegal activities, which is itself illegal) they can do that anyway.

There's absolutely nothing you gain by making it easy for them by telling them that you did.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#486
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happens once it's accident, if it happens constantly, its their responsibility if not starting a protest at all would prevent the violence And if they put their label on it it's their responsibility.

Just because someone is a catalyst, I don't see how it logically and necessarily follows that 100% of the causal responsibility falls on them. This seems objectively reductive and represents ideological beliefs as objective facts. Maybe the masses are upset and this is a sign of things to come, that should be listened to.

Again, accidents happen, but if you are the catalyst over and over again it's on you.

> This seems objectively reductive and represents ideological beliefs as objective facts.

No, you just didn't liked that thing you like got attacked for the thing they did and are making up excuses.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#487
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They indeed sometimes destroyed some properties But you cannot blame them for the violence in the protest they co-organized. People are free to attend the protest, and they cannot control them. They never called for violence against police. And most protest now in France have some people fighting with the police. The same way you can see firefighters throwing stuff (including petanque ball) to police during firefighe…

If it happens once it's accident, if it happens constantly, its their responsibility if not starting a protest at all would prevent the violence And if they put their label on it it's their responsibility.

So should we apply the same thinking with police constantly inciting violence at protests ? At this point anytime there's a major protest in France, I consider it a win if no one in the crowd lost an eye, hand or worse, their life, from the grenades thrown by police.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#488
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big cause for concern; our secret service deems anybody using encryption tools as a quasi-terrorist.

I agree there is cause for concern, I just find the narrative style to be of disservice and detracts from the issue, as it appears to me that the use of a catastrophist, panic-inducing, anger-laden tone and structure is a mechanism to buy people into their view through fear instead of reason, which in turn drives the wrong response for addressing the issue. IOW the good part is that they're fact driven, the bad part…

Let the frogs boil alive then?

There won't be The Day™ when the system goes authoritarian. It's a slope and one must panic at every step. If you wait for The Day, it will be too late.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#489
post #55
post #17

As others have mentioned, context matters a lot. The arrested group came back from Syria (where they fought alongside YPG against ISIS) radicalised, and were monitored ever since then. Their alleged crime isn't using Signal, it's just that a French anti-terrorism law allows to be arrested for "organisation with the intent to commit terrorist acts", which the DGSI(internal intelligence services) claims a radicalised g…

> As others have mentioned, context matters a lot. No, it does not. While this group is indeed suspicious, detaining them without a proof (and using whatsapp as your proof) opens a serious precedent. Now anyone can be detain for that. And it'll be used for serious suspicious cases later but also will be used against someone like you because someone in the police didn't like how you walk.

How does "police didn't like how you walk" is similar to "demonstrably returned radicalized from a ongoing warzone"?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, democracy is not 0 or 1, there are shades... So for sure Macron is not a dictator, but French democracy "grade" was not super high and it did went down. French 5th republic is sometimes nicknamed "presidential monarchy"... Electing the parliament quite at the same time as the president did reinforced the power of the president. The rise of the far right basically made that the one in the best position against f…

Presidential Monarch is a nice catch phrase, but it just contradicts itself for many reasons. Monarchs don't get elected. They don't step down from power after at most 2 terms. They don't have to deal with an assemblée nationale. Unless you think of some constitutional monarchies were the monarch has basically no powers. In both cases, it doesn't make sense. I don't care if "quite 100%" of unionized people are in uni…

Presidential Monarch (that is a witty remark) means you get elected monarch, then there you have quite the power of a monarch, with little counter power, including now quite not having to deal with assemblée nationale (or just rarely). No other western democracy have such system giving that much power to one person. I think we can do better than this when it comes to democracy.

There are different election in France, including professional election, where you basically vote for a union that will represent you while you are not necessarily unionized.

Note that in 1789 our system would not be called a democracy, but a representative system. Note that Russia our Turkey have regular elections and a nice constitution. Of course I am not comparing France with those 2 countries, but it shows that election and a constitution elone are not enough, and that is the only thing you are mentioning.

France is not Russia of course, but I am often afraid in protest(being several time attacked by the police while peacefully demonstrating), and some of my friends did not joined me at some protest because of fear of the police. And we've seen negative change on how police handle protest under our last president (Hollande), but even more under Macron's rules. Germany, birthplace of Black Bloc, use less dangerous weapon and very different technique (based on deescalation).

About pressure against journalists, for sure we are not in Russia ! but there are regular alarming things... Twitter feed from Societe des journalistes or societe des Redacteur of mainstream newspaper can be a good source of information. Here just 3 random bits: https://www.telerama.fr/debats-reportages/l-espionnage-des-j... https://www.lemonde.fr/actualite-medias/article/2023/05/10/m... https://rsf.org/fr/petition-les-citoyens-ont-le-droit-de-man...

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