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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#481

Post by philistine »

tpmx wrote: post #445
INTPenis wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but then it's game over. I used to worry about nukes, especially with all the suicidal people in the world, but then I realized that it's not worth worrying about because there's no way out. Anyone launches a nuke and it's game over, MAD.

It's not game over for the world if e.g. Russia nukes some remote part of Sweden/Gotland with a low yield bomb tomorrow.

Realistically, if Russia were to use nuclear weapons, they would completely lose Indian and Chinese support, the last two nuclear powers currently playing nice with them. So long as something debilitating is the consequence of nuclear weapons, Russia will abstain.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#482

Post by philistine »

halJordan wrote: post #413
rixrax wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone hailing from russia to be taken seriously, can you please answer these basic questions first: 1) Is Ukraine a sovereign country that belongs to the free people of Ukraine?, 2) Who does Crimea belong to?, 3) is russian army committing war crimes in Ukraine, and 4) are you personally supporting the russians war of genocide on Ukraine?

Ah yes, a litmus test of au courant conformity before granting someone the right of speech. That's definitely Western values on display.

They didn't say they had to answer any which way. They just needed answers to take them seriously.

The way of a western democracy is not anything goes. We all have to agree to certain truths.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#483

Post by eternalban »

rixrax wrote: post #393
diimdeep wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not background but U.S. centric perspective, that results in tunnel world view and bubble info diet, and man in question is analyst for Stratfor from 2000. Zeihan spent 12 years at Stratfor, eventually rising to vice-president.

For anyone hailing from russia to be taken seriously, can you please answer these basic questions first: 1) Is Ukraine a sovereign country that belongs to the free people of Ukraine?, 2) Who does Crimea belong to?, 3) is russian army committing war crimes in Ukraine, and 4) are you personally supporting the russians war of genocide on Ukraine?

It is worrying that in a supposedly informed forum the simple, and factual, matter of there being distinct perspectives on the geopolitical order post USSR's collapse requires any further elaboration. Wow. Are you actually denying that others, quite a few billion of them not Russians btw (they go by "Global South" these days), view US behavior post Soviet collapse as aggressive and motivated by a desire for lasting hegemony? That clearly is not a view that would be addressed by the content in question, so GP's point stands.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#484

Post by throwaway2037 »

908B64B197 wrote: post #425
coffeebeqn wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And hopefully soon Ukraine

Ukraine is going to be an incredible opportunity for the west in the coming decades. Young, educated, motivated population with western values and a strong will for democracy and freedom. An economy that can only grow and prosper. And unlike Syrian and Afghan "refugees", there's a strong desire from Ukrainian refugees to return and rebuild.

Real question: Why did you write Syrian and Afghan refugees with double quotes? In English slang, this is used to imply so-called status -- lesser or fake. Their countries were destroyed by war, and they again have repressive dictatorships. Their need to escape to a safer places seems real to me. Also, if Syria or Afghanistan graduated to democratic, free countries, I am sure many, many refugees would want to return home for cultural reasons.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#485

Post by lolinder »

Gravityloss wrote: post #464
lolinder wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that Finland matters a lot to Russia. The border with Finland is huge, geographically hard to defend, and right next to Russia's capitol. Finland's maritime zones join with existing NATO states to block Russia from operating in much of the Baltic (a process that would be completed when Sweden joins). Finland joining NATO is more than a shrug for Russia.

Moscow is nowhere close to Finland. St Petersburg is. Most of Russian border area near Finland is just forest.

Oops, fair enough—I had just been thinking of older history and forgot that the Bolsheviks moved the capitol. St. Petersburg is still the second-largest city and a major strategic location, but you're right that it's not the capitol.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#486

Post by carlosjobim »

lazide wrote: post #443
carlosjobim wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. Have you heard about Stalin? Where was he from?

Stalin was born in Georgia of course. But where did he live when he was doing his reign of terror? Moscow. Hitler was from Austria, but he still ran things from Berlin. And Berlin is where the power structure was, and still is. It's always more than one man, even if the man is a dictator. The dictator is just the one who survives the power structures environment in a way to be 'the top'. And that power structure exis…

Stalin and most other dictators bring their own power structures. The capital city is just that. As an example, some roman dictators/emperors never even went to Rome, but still had strong power structures.

And just because it has to be pointed out, Stalin didn't do his reign of terror from the Kremlin in Moscow, but from his dacha in Kuntsevo.

Hitler also spent most of his reign of terror from Wolfsschanze and Obersalzberg. He definitely had his own power structure, completely independent of the city of Berlin.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#487

Post by carlosjobim »

dralley wrote: post #463
carlosjobim wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>Yes, and for the same reasons they are invading Ukraine now! They feared German attacks through Finland and decided it was better to invade first, just as they fear American attacks through Ukraine and decided to invade first. Next you'll argue that they feared German attacks through Poland, and that's why they invaded Poland alongside the Germans.

Of course yes. The Soviets and the Nazis were preparing for war with each other long before they jointly attacked Poland. This is a widely known historical fact. Stalin wasn't ready for the war with Germany just yet and bought some time. Invading Poland gave him a buffer zone, instead of having the Germans closer.

As for the Finno-Russian war in WWII, just take a look at the map and see how close Finland is to Russia's largest city.

Modern wars work like this. Rulers will invade to get a buffer zone between themselves and the enemy. Putin felt cornered by perceived US advances towards Russia and lashed out.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#488

Post by foverzar »

tim333 wrote: post #435
foverzar wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally strange given that love to democracies have nothing to do with anything. Srsly, how do the "United democracies" expect to be taken seriously when their whole attitude to literally everything is "bad guys don't like us for being good boys"?

NATO seems to get taken quite seriously by its opponents for some strange reason.

As some dangerous warmongering entity, sure, it has to be considered: just look at Russia trying to get a better foothold for another confrontation with it.

What I am talking about is how everyone outside Europe starts rolling their eyes as Europeans claim that the mere reason why their super advanced, super civilized society has bad blood with someone else is because Europeans just too advanced and democratic and only bad boys don't like good boys.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#489

Post by foverzar »

koonsolo wrote: post #451
tim333 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO seems to get taken quite seriously by its opponents for some strange reason.

Exactly, and in the end that's the only thing that matters: power. We in the western world can be very happy that democracies represent the biggest power. Anyone who doesn't agree is free to emigrate or happily live in a dictatorship of course.

> Exactly, and in the end that's the only thing that matters: power.

> democracies represent the biggest power.

> Anyone who doesn't agree is free to emigrate or happily live in a dictatorship of course.

Eh, but that's the point: a bunch of countries with a shady history of global power dynamics (genocidal colonialism, fascism, etc) that now declared its current political establishment as a universal virtue, all while invading other countries around the globe.

I just feel like "democratic" don't notice at all how they're slipping into antagonism with almost every other culture except their own, up to labeling the forming west-skeptical alliances as "new axis of evil" or claiming everyone who doesn't politically align to them to be dysfunctional (see Hungary)

What's the coping strategy for the fact that so many diverse regions of the world that share nothing in common assess a very tight (geographically, economically and culturally) circle of countries as a threat?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#490

Post by lazide »

carlosjobim wrote: post #486
lazide wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stalin was born in Georgia of course. But where did he live when he was doing his reign of terror? Moscow. Hitler was from Austria, but he still ran things from Berlin. And Berlin is where the power structure was, and still is. It's always more than one man, even if the man is a dictator. The dictator is just the one who survives the power structures environment in a way to be 'the top'. And that power structure exis…

Stalin and most other dictators bring their own power structures. The capital city is just that. As an example, some roman dictators/emperors never even went to Rome, but still had strong power structures. And just because it has to be pointed out, Stalin didn't do his reign of terror from the Kremlin in Moscow, but from his dacha in Kuntsevo. Hitler also spent most of his reign of terror from Wolfsschanze and Obersa…

Stalin used (and took over) Lenin’s power base, and built up more as time went on. He didn’t ‘bring his own’. Even despite all the purges, for instance, the Red Army was there before and after him. The NKVD, KGB, MDB all had predecessor agencies (some back to the Tsars even, but the NKVD was first formed in 1917).

And Kuntsevo is in Moscow. Literally.

And if you’re asserting that Hitler didn’t need, or use, the Wehrmacht or other organs of state power (including the Gestapo, which was consolidated out of the prior Prussian Secret Police), and didn’t spend most of his time in Berlin, then I don’t know what to say.

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