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Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

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Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#481

Post by geraldwhen »

junofan wrote: post #214
geraldwhen wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such extreme privilege right here. Kids that young will be pressured into using drugs and committing crimes, mostly vandalism and theft, but sometimes worse. That’s around the age when kids started dealing drugs where I grew up. I knew kids who threw bricks through windows and huffed paint when left alone. Bad areas are bad.

Come on, it’s not extreme privilege. No gang is recruiting at 6.

I don’t know if it was gang affiliated but other 6 year olds were dealing where I grew up.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#483

Post by ethbr0 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #310
ethbr0 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying problem is the same as the lottery: the human brain adjusts probability on the basis of severity. Terrible things happen. They aren't likely to happen.

You are definitely onto something. Humans are horrible at estimating risk, but are forced to do it all the time. In some cases, it is a very clear miscalculation resulting in overdoing it one way or another. Sometimes it is just dumb luck. I think this is the wrong way of looking at this. Most people believe that lightning does not strike people that often. This does not give one has carte blanche to prance around th…

As a kid, I swam in our backyard pool during thunderstorms. I sunbathe. I drink alcohol.

I do these things knowing the risk but knowing the happiness they give me outweighs that risk.

Personally, I feel like the benefits to kids of greater independence (developing social skills, learning to deal with being uncomfortable, learning to see things through on their own) outweigh the risks of that independence (sex trafficking or sexual assault, bullying).

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#484

Post by notch898a »

danaris wrote: post #455
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't know how the US has got itself into such a messed up state that such drills are considered necessary As the comment above you says, they’re between counterproductive and unnecessary, and purely creatures of posturing and appeasing scared parents.

I think you've missed the point there, which is that something has become necessary to prepare for the horrifying reality of mass shootings. Unfortunately, due to the political situation in the country, it's currently impossible to do the one thing that we know might actually stop those shootings (make it harder or impossible for people, especially children, to get their hands on heavy weaponry). So by the "logic" of…

Assuming the drills are necessary currently, doing "the one thing" isn't going to end them for at least decades. It's not going to be an either or situation.

The best solution I see is worldwide disarmament in some manner that still allows equalization of women, elderly, etc in physical force. That's a pretty tall order honestly not sure that happens anytime in my lifetime. It also has a sort of 'prisoner dilemma' element where the individual would be insane to give up their arms while the criminal still has theirs.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#485

Post by mtrower »

vuln wrote: post #107
lolinder wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're restricting it more than the law calls for. A child is not neglected when they are allowed to participate in any activities that a reasonable and prudent parent would judge to be within their capabilities. You're getting too fixated on that one example, and there are a lot of places in the US where a child of a certain age can and should be allowed to roam pretty much anywhere. You're correct the language…

I think they should restrict activity in the way I understood it. Restrict to home and or a safe location and remove the judicial interpretation. I would be 100% fine with that.

This is how you get children who never grow up able to take care of themselves. All of those things you're so worried about children doing? To the extent they happen at all, you're just pushing those things off until they're 18, delaying the developmental process and shoving those growing pains into the workforce and adult society. Moreover, it's hard to learn how to cope with independence without some measure of... independence. Another thing you don't want to be first learning at 18.

I strongly suggest you put down the devices and go live a little. As others have explained, social media feeds are not in any way an accurate or reasonable reflection of societal norms.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#486

Post by Zetice »

InvaderFizz wrote: post #372
Zetice wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of the US are like this, but huge swaths of Americans don't even bother locking their front doors.

That's largely changed. I grew up in rural areas where this was true. In fact, we didn't bother locking our doors when I was a kid. Now, however, people lock their doors because of meth heads even in the extremely rural areas of the southeast.

Just… no. It has not changed, crime is down across the board.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#487

Post by mtrower »

p0pcult wrote: post #467
mtrower wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you want to do things like bring groceries home (more than you can carry in your two hands), or something novel like, say, building materials. People do do those sorts of things, you know. Or are you telling me that day to day life is better if I'm not a woodworker? More food for thought: how cold does it have to get, with how much snow on the ground, before walking can be reasonably said to be unattractive to…

Having building mats delivered frequently would be a good reason to have a work vehicle. In walkable places, you can just walk down and get that day's groceries as needed, or maybe you do it on your way home from your walkable job, etc. It's more flexible, fresher, requires less mass consumption, less packaging, as well--lots of ancillary benefits. More food for thought: I've heard a saying (attributed to Norwegian/S…

> In walkable places, you can just walk down and get that day's groceries as needed, or maybe you do it on your way home from your walkable job, etc. It's more flexible, fresher, requires less mass consumption, less packaging, as well--lots of ancillary benefits.

It's also more expensive, and I don't buy "less packaging". Bulk purchasing generally involves less packaging than purchasing in smaller quantities. It's also far more time consuming to go to the store every day vs. once a month for bulk items and once a week to supplement perishables / small stock. I realize some cultures do this, and that's fine and all, but it has tradeoffs.

> More food for thought: I've heard a saying (attributed to Norwegian/Scandinavian folk wisdom) that goes like, "There is no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing."

I have plenty of clothing. Nothing stops me from going out in most weather if I feel like it. When I don't feel like it, my truck is sure nice to have...

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#488

Post by hosh »

kyoob wrote: post #456
hosh wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This parenting style doesn’t necessarily save parents time. For example, to implement this: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/6169288... It means involving toddlers into helping in small ways (and having to pay attention to the toddler’s capacity), even if that help initially involves many mistakes. People who are barely treading water may not have the resources to do something like that, being too…

I think you’re finding arguments in what I’m saying that I’m not actually putting in there. That’s fine! I respect your point of view.

You are right. Thank you for respecting it. I was trying to convey that the frame in which we are approaching this is off, so the arguments I brought up falls outside of what you are saying. I have a bad habit of not indicating that I am changing the frame, so that can lead to confusion, and often to the experience that I'm talking past other people.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#489

Post by mtrower »

Gigachad wrote: post #386
mtrower wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you want to do things like bring groceries home (more than you can carry in your two hands), or something novel like, say, building materials. People do do those sorts of things, you know. Or are you telling me that day to day life is better if I'm not a woodworker? More food for thought: how cold does it have to get, with how much snow on the ground, before walking can be reasonably said to be unattractive to…

When I’m doing a big shop I just get it delivered to my door. Costs from $2-$10AUD. I’m not claiming there are no things where a car is useful. But having to drive regularly is depressing. My life improved so much when I moved out of the suburbs and in to a walkable area. Sitting in traffic twice a day was sending me insane. While walking makes me feel better.

> When I’m doing a big shop I just get it delivered to my door. Costs from $2-$10AUD.

That... adds up quickly. And delivery services have other problems, such as actually getting the items you want. This may not be a problem for you; it's been a problem for me. Also, I can't help but point out that instead of driving out in your car for your groceries, you're having someone else drive the groceries to you. In a car. (I'm not sure if this has developed into something else, but it started with the topic of cars and their associated infrastructure).

> I’m not claiming there are no things where a car is useful. But having to drive regularly is depressing. My life improved so much when I moved out of the suburbs and in to a walkable area. Sitting in traffic twice a day was sending me insane. While walking makes me feel better.

Well, for me, I love to drive. I spent five years without a vehicle and it was depressing as all hell. This is in the context of country roads though, not city traffic. I hate cities...

I also tend to walk an hour or two most days, so there's that. Maybe we can agree that the issue is more about being forced (or feeling forced) into one path or another?

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#490

Post by mtrower »

em-bee wrote: post #422
mtrower wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expound upon this? Specifically, why cars are bad for personal independence, but bicycles are just fine?

it's that everything is designed around cars. as a 15 year old i traveled through multiple countries in europe on my bike, alone. as a 17 year old in the US i was not able to go anywhere without getting a ride in a car. any interesting places to go to were to far away to even reach conveniently by bike. everything was designed around and dependent on cars. as a very independent youth i considered this experience an i…

> any interesting places to go to were to far away to even reach conveniently by bike.

Isn't this just a result of the country being more spread out in general? For this reason, cars are obviously useful. And because people have them... well, yes, it becomes circular. I think bikes are a pretty common thing to own in the U.S., though. Adults mostly use them for recreation, but minors definitely use them to get around. What part of the U.S. were you in? This is probably a large factor.

> as a very independent youth i considered this experience an interesting lesson on what it means to be dependent, but most certainly growing up there would have been different. i have seen other youth struggling with the sudden change when they turned 18 and were expected to act like independent adults instead of the dependent youth they were until then.

Generally in the U.S. you get your license as soon as possible (around 16), and work out whatever situation you can for a vehicle. It's true that we seem to be developing a dependency problem in the U.S., pushing maturity further and further out, but I don't think cars are the issue. Maybe in large cities; I can't really speak to the situation in those.

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