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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#481

Post by asciimov »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

As an aging millennial that grew up in West Texas, I have the exact opposite feelings.

To me cars, equal freedom. I grew up in a small neighborhood, I rode bikes to my friends houses there but my neighborhood was so far removed from other places and stores that there was no other place to go. Getting my license at 16 opened so many doors for me. Now I could go hang out at my other friends houses that lived 10-15 miles away from me. I could get a job, go to the store and movies, and just cruse around without having my parents question me. I didn't have a cell phone back then, so being able to leave and not be contacted was glorious.

For college I moved out to the Texas Panhandle. When gas was cheap I'd often go out for long drives into the country with friends, to talk, so explore and see what was out there, to visit family, and to make beer runs because our city was dry meaning you had to go out of town to buy a six pack.

When I have had extended periods of not having a vehicle I have get a visceral sense of foreboding and dread. I feel like a caged animal, unable to leave any situation, escape in case of danger. These feelings mildly lessen if public transit is available, but they are still there. Having any kind of vehicle feels like safety as I know I can flee if I need to, even if I don't.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#483

Post by lotsofpulp »

dilap wrote: post #392
leguy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. Or maybe a reflection of higher expectations? Housing, healthcare, and vehicles are all examples of things that both cost more and are much more advanced than the same version previous generations had. Also young people are living in cities more than previous generations and those cities are denser. The value prop of a car, price aside is less…

Cars and healthcare are debatable, but with housing you're literally buying the same houses as the previous generation, just way more expensive. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4518-Rosedale-Ave-Austin-... https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1339-46th-Ave-San-Francis... https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/677-Harmony-Ln-Ashland-OR...

The economic value of a location changes over time, so the land component of the house is not the same. Plus increases in population can dramatically shift supply and demand curves.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#484

Post by ryandrake »

taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

It's also a financial literacy problem. Financing a rapidly depreciating asset like a car is a very poor choice, and maybe younger people are waking up to this. You're basically underwater as soon as you drive a new car off the lot. If you have to have a car, buy a used one for cash.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#485

Post by trgn »

noobermin wrote: post #469
trgn wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Young people always have had no money. It's the nature of being young. Cars are really just trash technology that has made city life worse. Older generation have an emotional attachment to cars, and project a lot of virtuous attributes onto it (freedom, independence, wealth, ...). Younger generations just do that less. They accurately see what cars are. The young have that luxury. They're not at that age yet wher…

I feel like cars are only good for older people of a certain age, and as healthcare (for now) has gotten better for well-to-do people, they can continue on older than the greatest generation could. But, when they hit 80 or 90 or so, or they get disabled, the car centric cities will turn out to be very inhibiting for older folks, and many end up feeling isolated. It is also a major problem with car centric city planni…

Absolutely. It's a huge cliff. Old people eventually can't drive, and in car centric places, immediately lose all independence. we're going through it right now in my family. Keep your ears open and you hear it all the time; "grandpa drove into a parked car, not sure if he should still be driving".

I plan to retire (finances willing) in a walkable city, for just that reason.

Same argument at the other end of age spectrum. American children have no independence, only because cities are dangerous because of cars.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#486

Post by ghaff »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #432
thesuitonym wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guy, nobody thinks the Netherlands is a perfect beacon of transit, but you just can't understand what it's like living in the US. Even if you live in a large metro, unless it's NYC or you live and work in the right parts of Chicago, public transit just isn't even an option--unless an hour and a half commute on a bus is worth it to you. Let's compare your commute to work to a commute in the US: >I have to get up ea…

>In the US, this was actually entire hypothetical. The route just doesn't actually exist. Drag your butt over to Google maps and punch in a route from Lowell, Leominster, Worcester or Taunton Massachusetts (outlying cities in the Boston area people many commute in from) to any portion of the Boston area just inside I95 but not downtown and eyeball the times. The route exists in the US and the times are in line with h…

I live about a 7 minute drive from the North Leominster commuter rail. I'm about 90 minutes door to door to Boston/Cambridge depending upon where I'm going--which is better than driving at rush hour.

That said, it's only useful for commuting. There are far too few trains after evening rush hour to use it if attending an evening event.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#487

Post by s1artibartfast »

smrtinsert wrote: post #406
taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

It's also a tacky and gaudy display of wealth just for a rapidly depreciating asset built at an environmental cost for a function a lot of us don't need that much. I'm not young, but I don't care about cars in the slightest and can't wait for a post car society whatever that might look like.

I think it largely comes down to perspective, interests, and way of life.

I honestly have trouble imagining a happy life without a vehicle. It enables me to go places I want to go, where there is no public transportation nor would I want there to be.

On top of that, there's the utility of being able to build things like homes and shelter.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#488

Post by getoffmyyawn »

I grew up and lived in 3 cities in the US for most of my life. Having a car was a must in all of them. For the last 10 years I have lived in 2 european cities and not needed a car.

I love not owning a car. This is made possible by lots of good public transportation options around me. On the few occasions that I need a car I can easily rent one. I've only rented a car 3 times in the last 10 years, excluding trips to the US (where I always need to rent a car).

But also, modern cars are bananas. Between the flat screens replacing physical controls and the paid subscriptions to enable existing functionality, I want nothing to do with car ownership anymore.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#489

Post by taylodl »

sokoloff wrote: post #372
taylodl wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That helps a little, but still makes care ownership prohibitively expensive for young people. You're still looking at $350 per month for a 5 year old or newer vehicle, i.e. one that's reliable and has lower maintenance (and aggravation) costs. That still leaves you paying a little over $600 per month. From that point as you start lowering your finance costs you're going to increase your maintenance and aggravation co…

There are plenty of reliable 15-year old cars. (My wife drives a reliable 18-year old, 225K mile car. We took it on a 1600 mile roundtrip for the winter holidays this year with no particular fear that it wouldn't run like a top for the entire trip.) The idea that cars are only reliable for 5 years and 60K miles is, IMO and IME, quite out-dated. That was more true in the days of carburetors, points-based ignition, and…

I should also point out, and this is something I only learned recently, you can't get a car loan for a car that's over 10 years old.

About five years ago my mechanic told me there was a Lexus I needed to look at. Single (obsessive) owner, extremely low miles for the year, extremely clean, my mechanic had done all the work since the time the vehicle was no longer under the Lexus service and warranty.

The catch? It was over 10 years old. That's when I learned you can't get a loan for a car that's over 10 years old. I had the wherewithal to pay cash (it was over $10K for the car, but it was a steal!) but that's not something young people are going to be able to do.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#490

Post by Apocryphon »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #487
smrtinsert wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a tacky and gaudy display of wealth just for a rapidly depreciating asset built at an environmental cost for a function a lot of us don't need that much. I'm not young, but I don't care about cars in the slightest and can't wait for a post car society whatever that might look like.

I think it largely comes down to perspective, interests, and way of life. I honestly have trouble imagining a happy life without a vehicle. It enables me to go places I want to go, where there is no public transportation nor would I want there to be. On top of that, there's the utility of being able to build things like homes and shelter.

Car-sharing and ride-sharing exist now in addition to public transit. Vehicles can exist without personal ownership of one.
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