Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 514 posts

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#481

Post by iancmceachern »

lmm wrote: post #475
iancmceachern wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they can kill people's careers. I had a former employer sue a friend of mine, it wasn't legally enforceable but had to go for enough toncost enough in legal bills to make it so my friend lost his new, great, job that he had moved for. Just because it's not technically legally enforceable doesn't mean the company won't try to enforce it, and that trying has a real cost in terms of lawyers fees and also loss of…

Does negotiating to not have a non-compete agreement really reduce your risk of getting legal hassle from a disgruntled ex-employer that much? The way I see it even if you don't have a non-compete it's not really any harder for them to call up your new employer and go after you with a meritless lawsuit.

Yes it does. It won't even get to discovery. In this case the state accepted the case to go to discovery.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#482

Post by anon223345 »

DennisP wrote: post #406
steelframe wrote: post #332

When I was interviewing last year, I cut off an interview loop with a company primarily because I don't reside in California and their NDA was, "Anything you say, anything we say, forever." Since I was also interviewing with one of their direct competitors that I really preferred, I didn't want to put myself anywhere near a legal situation where they might try to mess things up for my career. They freaked out when I…

I quit a job I'd been at for well over a decade, because the company's new owner was making everyone sign noncompete, non-disparagement, and intellectual property contracts. They would own everything I invented while employed with them, even if I did it at home on my own time, if in their opinion it had anything to do with their business. I checked with a lawyer first, who said it was probably all enforceable in my s…

I’m on this, it really really sucks. I have a good idea that has nothing to do with my work and I can’t / won’t build it

I love my job, and I have a family, so the risk reward is too hard, but I’m literally going to quit in the next year just to get out of that stupid paperwork

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#483

Post by godelski »

humanistbot wrote: post #403
steelframe wrote: post #332

When I was interviewing last year, I cut off an interview loop with a company primarily because I don't reside in California and their NDA was, "Anything you say, anything we say, forever." Since I was also interviewing with one of their direct competitors that I really preferred, I didn't want to put myself anywhere near a legal situation where they might try to mess things up for my career. They freaked out when I…

The thing that makes me so angry is how lightly so many people treat these legally binding contracts. I showed up to a meetup at some tech company's offices. After putting in my name, I was shown a contract on a small tablet and was expected to click next and sign with my finger. I have normal vision and couldn't read it without putting it right in front of my eyeball. I don't sign anything without reading. I asked i…

It's an anti-pattern. People are pressed for time due to social pressure. The length of the documents adds to the stress, especially since it is full of legal jargon and looks like things you've seen before. Personally I think contracts need to be easily readable by laymen. Otherwise companies have an unfair advantage to tricking people. Isn't deception supposed to be illegal?

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#484

Post by behringer »

User23 wrote: post #456
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't this invalidate basically every software EULA/TOS?

Most EULAs are basically meaningless in the USA. Once you have a legally acquired copy of the program the Copyright Act specifically and explicitly gives you the right to back it up and load it for execution. You don't need to be licensed a legal right you already have. You can also print it off, cross out the shit you don't consent to, initial the changes, sign, and mail it certified to whatever their address of rec…

I've had the same thought about taking out predatory loans and then filing to have them canceled.

In my jurisdiction predatory loans are unenforceable.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#485

Post by nlitened »

humanistbot wrote: post #403
steelframe wrote: post #332

When I was interviewing last year, I cut off an interview loop with a company primarily because I don't reside in California and their NDA was, "Anything you say, anything we say, forever." Since I was also interviewing with one of their direct competitors that I really preferred, I didn't want to put myself anywhere near a legal situation where they might try to mess things up for my career. They freaked out when I…

The thing that makes me so angry is how lightly so many people treat these legally binding contracts. I showed up to a meetup at some tech company's offices. After putting in my name, I was shown a contract on a small tablet and was expected to click next and sign with my finger. I have normal vision and couldn't read it without putting it right in front of my eyeball. I don't sign anything without reading. I asked i…

I wonder whether signing with finger-drawn “I don’t agree” would be a solution that satisfies all sides?

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#486

Post by aliher1911 »

blueprint wrote: post #339
aliher1911 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are confusing non-compete and NDA, IP rights, non solicitation agreements and the like. You can go work for competitor, but it doesn't allow you to use any of your previous employer's IP, poach colleagues, clients etc. Doesn't prevent you from using your expertise and come up with novel things. And some big companies do care that you don't do it, because they don't want to go into litigations because laye…

i'm not confusing them. i know what i wrote. humans cannot avoid using IP from previous companies. what's your background ? (are you technical?) and there's more to this than existing big companies and their disposable funding.

I don't think my background is important here. But I'm technical if you need to know. I had first hand experience of colleagues specifically not working on certain parts of projects because of NDA from their previous employments.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#487

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

heavyset_go wrote: post #464
humanistbot wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that makes me so angry is how lightly so many people treat these legally binding contracts. I showed up to a meetup at some tech company's offices. After putting in my name, I was shown a contract on a small tablet and was expected to click next and sign with my finger. I have normal vision and couldn't read it without putting it right in front of my eyeball. I don't sign anything without reading. I asked i…

If you think that's bad, I've been to multiple medical practices where part of the "standard legal stuff" they want you to sign would have you give them the right to sell your private information and info about your visit to their partners for the purposes of advertising, etc.

those are larger groups likely owned by private equity investors

True private practices are definitely not doing that. they dont even have the financial incentive to make an investment for the legal advice add that statement, to their financial disclosure

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#488

Post by lolinder »

skue wrote: post #473
lolinder wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If the doc is worth $220K, why couldn't the practice that hired him match the offer to save themselves the $250K they spent hiring him? This feels like exactly the kind of wage suppression that the FTC is arguing against. 2. Workers are not serfs to be bought and sold. If the acquiring company wants the talent, then they should structure the deal in a way that makes the talent want to stay, not use legal handcuffs…

You’re focusing on the specific numbers in the example, but missing the point. Imagine the salary difference is larger. Basically, you have one company that has already paid $250K recruiting the doc and another company that paid close to $0. So if it comes to a bidding war over salary, the former company will always be at a financial disadvantage. And budgets always have limits.

No, I'm not focusing on numbers. In fact, if I focus on the numbers they seem suspect: $250k is the cost to recruit, not the relocation costs[0]. A good chunk of that (upwards of $220K) is going to occur even with a local recruitment, which makes the disadvantage of the initial recruiter much smaller.

Further, as others have mentioned, there are other ways to contractually recoup relocation costs without a non-compete. A "you must pay back your relocation costs if you leave within a year" clause is far more justifiable than a "you can't work as a physician within 30 miles for at least 1 year if you ever leave us ever" clause.

(The same type of payback clause could apply if you did something drastic like pay off their entire student loans in one lump sum, though I am assuming that in most cases practices don't do that.)

All that said, my point had nothing to do with the numbers and everything to do with the principles: non-compete clauses are an extremely blunt instrument and are inappropriate in most cases. Firms should be required to come up with more limited contracts that accomplish their stated goals and nothing more, rather than throwing in something that is so damaging to the worker because it's easier for their lawyers.

[0] https://healthrecruitlink.com/blog/what-will-it-cost-to-recr...

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#489

Post by BowBun »

trentnix wrote: post #469
humanistbot wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that makes me so angry is how lightly so many people treat these legally binding contracts. I showed up to a meetup at some tech company's offices. After putting in my name, I was shown a contract on a small tablet and was expected to click next and sign with my finger. I have normal vision and couldn't read it without putting it right in front of my eyeball. I don't sign anything without reading. I asked i…

100% It’s ridiculous how flippant and deceptive companies are about signing non-competes. Sometimes they neglect to mention it until you actually show up for work. So there you are, depending on this new job, standing in front of your new boss, compelled to create and maintain a positive relationship, presented with a legal contract that significantly damaged your leverage and alternate prospects. That might even be…

He received no damages after winning a case brought on by a company that prevented him from working for 1.5 years? That doesn't seem like justice to me.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#490

Post by Terretta »

monksy wrote: post #258
Terretta wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

their investment in teaching you their IP -- that's the theory you trade getting to learn for agreeing not to use it against them for a while -- is the theory at line worker level i'd argue this is nonsense, at 'how to mill iPhones from a single block of metal' or 'self driving car brain' maybe its real, but there are ndas and patents for that

> their investment in teaching you their IP -- that's the theory In your example, they cannot claim the skills and basic education that gets you up to the point of "how they mill iphones within a context" (i.e. the milling, operating the machinery, physical properties of the metal, etc) They are not legally able to include a huge educational backbone of knowledge (that they may have taught you) as their prioptary IP.…

context on the milling skills:

https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-...

Post reply on HN