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Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

justice.gov

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Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#481

Post by [deleted] »

from wrote: post #470
scotty79 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of punishing the rafinery is for them to figure out next time how could they know if this powder was stolen or not. The role of companies is to undertake risks in exchange for profit. They have all the incentives and tools to lower the risk they took wherever possible. If company can't be punished for buying stolen goods then there's no risk and society has to take the risk and the costs. Which makes no sen…

You cannot accidentally commit a felony - there has to be intent. What you are suggesting would substantially impede legitimate commerce (which by the way makes up the supermajority of all commerce) and would just result in actual fences coming up with fake documentation. As it stands now companies are basically expected to avoid deals where they see red flags around the provenance of the items. In neither indictment…

[deleted]

Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#482

Post by User23 »

whoooooo123 wrote: post #392
adrr wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have data backing that up? The data is all FOIA-able like calls to the police department and dispatch data. There's also insurance claim data which requires a police report.

When it's widely perceived that the police don't care about property crime, people don't call the police in the first place.

Case in point: https://www.wlbt.com/2022/04/21/residents-say-jpd-dispatcher...

Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#483

Post by [deleted] »

joenot443 wrote: post #394
vogt wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, why not? Well, for starters, to prevent the police from kicking my door in and shooting me or my pets simply because I was placed on a list of people who downloaded an app. Simply "police chase and abandon leads all the time" is not a strong enough rationale to justify the original suggestion to me.

Is it seriously your working model of police that they’re frequently given lists of people who download apps and instructed to kill them? That’s how you believe policing works? I know the BLM astroturfing had a profound effect on the rest of the internet, but it’s disappointing to see such a skewed version of reality presented here on HN. I just downloaded the app. Bring on the marauders. If they end up blasting me,…

[deleted]

Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#484

Post by vogt »

googlryas wrote: post #363
vogt wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, why not? Well, for starters, to prevent the police from kicking my door in and shooting me or my pets simply because I was placed on a list of people who downloaded an app. Simply "police chase and abandon leads all the time" is not a strong enough rationale to justify the original suggestion to me.

So you think the police will kick down the door of the 50,000 people who downloaded the app?

Of course not. My position is that if one person is wrongly persecuted despite breaking no laws, they should not be considered a suspect. Once police decide "We need the list of everyone who downloaded the app.", those 50,000 people are all suspects.

Here's what I _would_ be in favor of:

-Police bust Catalyic Converter Kingpin in one form or another

-Police learn in the course of investigation that said kingpin was a prolific user of said app

-Police subpoena the usernames of accounts that corresponded directly with the kingpin

There's a compromise to be had here without throwing 50,000 into a digital suspect bin when maybe half were people actually complicit to...wait for it...a crime.

Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#485

Post by vogt »

joenot443 wrote: post #394
vogt wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, why not? Well, for starters, to prevent the police from kicking my door in and shooting me or my pets simply because I was placed on a list of people who downloaded an app. Simply "police chase and abandon leads all the time" is not a strong enough rationale to justify the original suggestion to me.

Is it seriously your working model of police that they’re frequently given lists of people who download apps and instructed to kill them? That’s how you believe policing works? I know the BLM astroturfing had a profound effect on the rest of the internet, but it’s disappointing to see such a skewed version of reality presented here on HN. I just downloaded the app. Bring on the marauders. If they end up blasting me,…

I had a pretty snarky reply that I made and then deleted, because I went to your profile and looked at your Twitter account and honestly, I think we have quite a bit in common and would probably get along on most issues. And also, I really like your music.

Looking back on the wording of my original reply, it was too hyperbolic. My post was not meant as an "ACAB, the police are literally here to kill you on behalf of rich old men". My position is that the fewer opportunities for folks to be thrown into a pile of suspects for the police or any other law enforcement institution like the FBI, the better. I'm in favor of the police being able to subpoena Apple and Google for user data if there's reasonable, articulable suspicion those users committed a crime. To me, simply downloading a publicly available app in the app store does not satisfy that condition.

Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#486

Post by scotty79 »

from wrote: post #470
scotty79 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of punishing the rafinery is for them to figure out next time how could they know if this powder was stolen or not. The role of companies is to undertake risks in exchange for profit. They have all the incentives and tools to lower the risk they took wherever possible. If company can't be punished for buying stolen goods then there's no risk and society has to take the risk and the costs. Which makes no sen…

You cannot accidentally commit a felony - there has to be intent. What you are suggesting would substantially impede legitimate commerce (which by the way makes up the supermajority of all commerce) and would just result in actual fences coming up with fake documentation. As it stands now companies are basically expected to avoid deals where they see red flags around the provenance of the items. In neither indictment…

> You cannot accidentally commit a felony

You cannot but laws around forfeiture are weird. If what you own was involved in a crime it can be forfeitured even though you yourself are not charged with anything. And yes, that includes money too. It's from drug laws but I'd say it would better applied here.

> What you are suggesting would substantially impede legitimate commerce

Maybe it should be a bit impeded if unimpeded led to national crime wave.

Re: Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

#487

Post by scotty79 »

notch656a wrote: post #467
scotty79 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of punishing the rafinery is for them to figure out next time how could they know if this powder was stolen or not. The role of companies is to undertake risks in exchange for profit. They have all the incentives and tools to lower the risk they took wherever possible. If company can't be punished for buying stolen goods then there's no risk and society has to take the risk and the costs. Which makes no sen…

The government is ultimately the 'buyer' of the stolen goods. They are the ones that demand the catalytic convert be installed. Government created the risk for theft when they created this black market incentive. They have all the incentives and tools to lower the risk they took wherever possible.

So if people steal baby formula then it's governments fault because it requires bu law that people feed their children?
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