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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#481

Post by mistermann »

sofixa wrote: post #280
citilife wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many dislike the idea, but this is why people turn to "nationalism". If you want to decrease unemployment, you add tariffs for imports enabling more businesses to open domestically (i.e. tariffs effectively increase import costs). Similarly, you can loosen building codes to increase production of homes, limit visa duration, require citizenship for home ownership, etc. Those are some obvious fixes, why is the governme…

Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and it's just total nonsense. * depends on how you define "high" levels of migration, but few EU countries fit that. Portugal does, because they explicitly encourage it. Why? Nothing to do with the EU, they're trying to fight negative population growth. * social pr…

> Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and it's just total nonsense.

It's fascinating how subjective dimensions of reality have the appearance of being objective, and how this seems to be increasing over time.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#482

Post by ux-app »

Panzer04 wrote: post #468
ux-app wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all assets are equal. Shelter is a basic human need. Creating an environment that allows speculation in this asset is bad. Progressively tax the shit out of each subsequent property owned. Prevent foreign/corporate ownership of property outside of short stay, hotel/motel type accommodation. Make shelter an extremely unattractive asset to own. Unfortunately, many politicians across the world are also landlords.

Edit: My first paragraph conveys more frustration than perhaps I wanted, but it's what I think every time I hear this argument. I don't think "basic need" is a good argument, as many other things are basic needs but function perfectly fine in a market-based system. This perspective sounds moral, but proposes nothing to actually resolve the problem (other than to advantage a particular section of the population at the…

>Food is also a basic need, but does not get any of the attention because it is a functioning market.

If bread and milk were being hoarded by speculators (not some random luxury like truffles) you'd be hearing exactly the same discussion.

The point is that rich people with vested interests are stacking the deck against newcomers.

>market-based system

The free market does not exist. Property markets around the world are being heavily distorted through favourable tax treatment and speculators.

>other than to advantage a particular section of the population at the expense of another

This is business as usual, except that the advantage almost always flows the other way.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#483

Post by Tiktaalik »

jollybean wrote: post #447
Tiktaalik wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poof This has pretty much already been done in Vancouver, which has layers of Foreign Buyer Taxes, Speculation Taxes, Empty Home Taxes and strict Airbnb regulation. It absolutely did not make the problem go 'poof.' All these things were well worth doing and helped in various ways, but it remains that the core underlying problem is that there's not enough homes for everyone and scarcity ensures high rents and high p…

It has not been done in earnest in Vancouver. There's a 15 point 'one time' fee but it likely should be more, and/or an ongoing assessment i.e. higher annual taxes. Moreover, Canada gives away citizenship like candy and families have their kids live there. AirBnB is still running strong as well, which should be much more heavily taxed.

The government still keeps track of the amount of foreign buyers. It has plunged. It's likely that if it was a still a problem people would be doing something more but it's marginal at this point.

The biggest impacts have already happened. We had developers building hyper luxury condos explicitly marketed to an asian audience and overnight with the foreign buyer tax everyone stopped making those and the same developers have pivoted to building purpose built rental for locals.

The taxes worked. There's still a housing crisis.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#484

Post by keepquestioning »

hepinhei wrote: post #279

What this article does not say is that the prime Minister has 6 houses... So he is benefiting from this ( https://www.cmjornal.pt/politica/detalhe/antonio-costa-tem-c... ) We are living more and more in a world where people work but are not able to live with dignity

We need a cap on property ownership for those in the political class. That's the key to fairer policies.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#485

Post by llanowarelves »

immibis wrote: post #210
_vbnz wrote: post #193

Europe is facing complete economic collapse in the face of hyper-inflation, energy shortages, the Euro collapsing in value and rising interest rates. It's a shame that the continent that was once the birthplace of democracy, the scientific method, the industrial revolution and socialism has been reduced to nothing more than an open-air museum for wealthy Americans and a refugee centre for the victims of their wars. W…

Last time Europe had "strong leaders who will put first" it did NOT end well.

Works well for Japan, China, and Israel.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#486

Post by [deleted] »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

[deleted]

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#487

Post by selectodude »

WalterBright wrote: post #429
rovolo wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inflation is not the result of profits, gouging, etc. Inflation is the measure of the price of goods > It's the result of funding the deficit by running the printing press Increasing the money supply indirectly increases the price of goods. It matters in the long run, but the price of goods can change in the short-term based on supply. The oil crisis of the 1970s caused oil prices to increase because oil supply was…

You can tell it's a monetary thing because you don't see deflation. > Fiat systems aren't inherently inflationary; but they target a low level of inflation because they prefer it to deflation. That's just the excuse. The real reason is so the government can spend money without raising taxes. So they sell you on the idea that inflation is good.

Deflation deepens recessions and lowers investment. It is inherently bad. It has nothing to do with spending money without raising taxes. Countries that can borrow in their own currency can already do that in any environment. Heck, parts of Europe had negative interest rates to combat deflation.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#488

Post by SyzygistSix »

nemo44x wrote: post #441
_dain_ wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or you could just legalize building anything other than single family dwellings. there's a lot of room in between quarter acre lot suburbia, and a crowded favela! look up "missing middle housing". the problem is purely a matter of restrictive zoning.

The cost of materials and labor is really high for most people, not to mention land. And then there’s maintenance. It’s out of reach for most people. Populations are so much larger than they were 100 years ago and people want increasingly large dwellings. I think the tiny home concept makes sense as it’s trailers without the stigma. But yes, we probably need to think of a new type of town built around small propertie…

The same thing would happen with those that is happening with trailer parks; companies buy the land they are on and triple the rent because they can.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#489

Post by SyzygistSix »

rcarmo wrote: post #155
jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

Nope. Zoning and licensing is in the hands of politicians and construction lobbies vying for the best places to build high-value housing, which is where they get the most return.

And those folks are voted in and supported by voters who like the fact that their homes quintuple in value. The same goes for any investment properties they buy.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#490

Post by borski »

outworlder wrote: post #194
blfr wrote: post #10

I do think that a state should exist primarily for the benefit of its citizens but this view had long been decried xenophobic at best. However, you can't have it both ways. If > countless stories of flats left uninhabited by some rich person who arrived at the building, bought two flats so that he could get a visa, and doesn’t even live there then clearly not > wealthy foreigners from all over the world, to whom we o…

Yeah, the article wants to argue both sides of every issue. However, > countless stories of flats left uninhabited by some rich person who arrived at the building, bought two flats so that he could get a visa, and doesn’t even live there So, the way it works is, as a golden visa applicant, you have to spend 7 days in the first year. The next 2 years, a combined 15 days (which can be spread whichever way you like). Su…

Two caveats:

1) The investment doesn't need to be in a single property; you could buy up multiple smaller properties that sum to the amount you need, and rent them out or leave them empty.

2) There are also hotel investment options rather than buying up existing real estate, and those are still available in the big cities as they are considered 'commercial'

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