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Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

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481–490 of 817 posts

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#481

It's a simple problem, we turned housing into an investment. Now everyone who owns a home is incentivized to ensure their investment is maximized and that results in a lot of NIMBYism. The simple solution is we need more housing in cities and suburbs. How we get there is an exercise that's taken on by local housing authorities and they are not incentivized to solve the problem. That's because they work for voters who…

> It's a simple problem, we turned housing into an investment. Now everyone who owns a home is incentivized to ensure their investment is maximized and that results in a lot of NIMBYism.

I don't know how this came to be such an obviously true common wisdom answer here at Hacker news. It's an extremely incomplete account of what causes NIMBYism. I'm sure at least some of it is purely a desire to maintain land value appreciation, but as others have already pointed out, in plenty of cases, conversion from single-family to multi-family zoning increases land value and the land owners still don't want that.

The basic cause of NIMBYism is these are people's homes you're talking about. They live there. They may have lived there for decades, possibly even for generations. They chose the place for the character and culture it had at the time of choosing, and they don't want that to change. If they enjoy a relatively quiet life with space, they don't want to see their home changed into a traffic jam with nowhere to park. They don't want to be perpetually surrounded by nonstop construction.

I'm not trying to say anyone who feels this way is inherently right. At some point, change is inevitable. I'm sure the original inhabitants didn't like it when European colonists spread strange diseases across the land and then wiped out the stragglers with superior firepower. I'm sure the ranchers of the west didn't like seeing their ranches turned into suburbs. And the suburbanites don't want to see multi-family housing in their once-quiet and relatively secluded homesteads.

Without making value judgments either way, though, I think you have to acknowledge there are far more basic instincts at play here than simple financial incentives. It's fair to say we at some point have no choice, and if the result is we can solve housing unavailability and especially homelessness, and the cost is a few or even a large number of people are left with the neighborhoods they grew up in changed drastically into places they no longer want to live, that may be worth it. But you should understand the full range of motivations for people who want stability in their homes and communities and not act like it's purely about financial gain and greed. Remember also that a fair number of communities in which concerns about gentrification are the greatest and people really oppose redevelopment are neighborhoods that these people were historically forced to live in because they were ostracized if not killed when they tried to live anywhere else. That community in its specific current form is what they see themselves as being a part of, far more than the larger city, state, or country that never wanted them in the first place. This is far more complex than you're making it sound.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#482
post #467

Let's surround single family urban homes with high density apartment complexes and low income housing, and then act big mad when those people paying all the taxes and propping up the local public schools up and leave. All of these trendy YIMBY schemes are great. All they need is a proviso requiring all the targets of the schemes to stick around while their neighborhoods and schools go downhill.

Dense urban neighborhoods are the ones propping up the single family neighborhoods, not the other way around. The infrastructure costs per taxpayer are way higher in low density neighborhoods. All those extra roads, sewage lines, water lines, power lines, street lights, etc. add up. The single family homes are the leeches not paying their fair share.

You'll get to test your hypothesis that middle class families are the real problem with urban life when they quietly ghost on urban zones subjected to these cool ideas of yours.

Let's just sit back and see how it plays out.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a family on hard times should be forced to leave their grandmothers home when she dies and hope they can find a new one? Gentrification can easily push a property in the place they've lived their whole lives out of their price range. And the family home might not have been super well kept up so the "windfall" isn't as big as the property values in the area may reflect. This happens now with gentrification in big c…

Yes, won't somebody think of that poor family on hard times inheriting an estate worth more than 12 million. How could we ask them to pay taxes?

It's any estate worth less than 12 million.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're landlords, but you didn't explicitly state it. But isn't your tenant basically paying off each property, over the next 30 years. So right now your debt load may be high, but you're not experiencing that. You're just paying off the loans from rental income and handling the overage (prop tax and fixes) with the dev job. So in 30 years the two of you will have like 40M dollars paid over the backs o…

Yes, we're landlords. We own two small properties that were originally built as residences but now have commercial tenants because the zoning permits it and therefore the tax valuations assume we'll use it that way. > Everyone wants to do what you are doing. As with any other asset that makes money, there are reasons why property prices are what they are, and if it's a magic ticket to free wealth, you have to ask you…

> you have to ask yourself why professionals with deep pockets aren't grabbing every property and driving prices up even further.

But... they are.

My Experience

Ever heard of Grant Cardone? He and his ilk are filling my youtube algorithm with seminars on how to do this. I meet strangers on planes telling me about gathering together in clusters of partners and buying up real estate. Ads on the radio hawk house-flipping courses. Robert Kioysaki sells book teaching how to do this. With just a little bit of inherited wealth - and American wealth is 60% inherited - people are building multi-generational legacies.

Research

In Massachusetts:

> In 2021, business entities purchased nearly 6,600 single-family homes across the state, more than 9 percent of all single-family homes sold. That’s nearly double the rate of such purchases a decade ago, according to a GBH News analysis of data provided by the Warren Group, a real estate data analysis firm. [0]

In 2021: >corporate investors snapped up 15 percent of U.S. homes for sale in the first quarter of this year [1]

In 2020: > a company called Treehouse Group was folded into Blackstone, then renamed in 2012, Invitation Homes was on a $10 billion spree, purchasing $150 million worth of houses per week.

In 2022: > About 2.5 million households shopping for a first home will be shut out of the market this year, estimates Nadia Evangelou, senior economist with the National Association of Realtors. That amounts to 15 percent of all first-time home buyers. In an already daunting market, investor purchasing is adding to the obstacles. [3]

> “The more that investors buy up entire communities and turn them into rental communities — people don’t have a choice anymore,”

References

[0] https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news/2022/05/16/across-massa...

[1] https://slate.com/business/2021/06/blackrock-invitation-hous...

[2] https://nypost.com/2020/07/18/corporations-are-buying-houses...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/us/corporate-real-estate-...

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#485
post #156

> Happily, they are at last starting to recognise the damage caused by these policies. No, nothing changed, if anything it got worst post covid. The only countries that can do something are singapore and china, who are rationally treating housing as a basic need similar to food. In the western world things will probably never change on that front. The boomers built houses because they knew they d be appreciating fore…

China is a terrible example lol. They have a massive problem with real estate bubbles. Singapore does indeed do a good job, the government builds large amounts of high quality affordable housing. However, Japan has had success with a more privatized approach, by simply making it easy to build new housing.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#486

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

Really the only problem here is the step-up cost-basis at death that you mention. This is indeed a big problem, and the fix is simple: Your heirs inherit your cost-basis as well (likely $0), so that when/if they sell it they have to pay taxes on the whole capital gain. We could also force the payments over some years, by increasing the cost basis and taxing on that amount. e.g. I inherit a property worth $1M and zero…

>Really the only problem here is the step-up cost-basis at death that you mention. This is indeed a big problem

Why is that a problem?

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#487
post #466
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is easy to pick an example like this to show the “bad” sides. But what is the alternative? If people had to pay inheritance tax on their family home, how many could not afford such a tax bill and would have to get rid of their family home to please the tax man. Regarding the cost basis rest that is so people can upgrade their house without having to pay a tax bill. This is just deferring the tax not avoiding it. W…

> what is the alternative? Inherit the cost basis.

There's an argument that for inherited property, the cost basis should be zero since you didn't pay anything for it; you got it for free.

Although, that's effectively a tax on inheritance that's due at sale, which would probably be a fairly big incentive against ever selling, and instead structuring it as a long-term lease.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#488
post #382

Allow mixed zoning and higher density. That's it. The whole non-anglosphere world works like that, more or less. Why are people so afraid of it?

NIMBYism seems to be a disease of Anglophone countries especially, it's true. It exists elsewhere, but it's particularly bad in the Anglosphere.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you pay no income tax on your rental income And are losing value on the property, which is the point of depreciation. >~30 years later, you've deprecated it down to an effective value of $0 An no one will now rent, since your building has an effective value of $0 since it has become crap. All throughout your list you ignore all the costs involved in being a landlord. Have any friends that have tried it? (I do). Did…

>"Did they become silly rich? Or did they quit because it is a major problem to actually make it very profitable versus other uses of capital and time? I'm a decently saavy investor (in many things), and have watched multiple friends start up rental properties, only to stop once it became clear that tenants destroy things, costs to maintain properties are volatile and astronomical, the work required is significant, a…

And there was a housing crash in there and decent growth in population over that time.

Next, instead of picking a window wrapping the biggest housing bust in a century, pick various decades and see how normal volatility behaves - and you might find this variability not uncommon.

In fact, from your own source, Figure 1 - the percent of rented properties is, well, nearly constant over the entire window (31% rented in 2007, 37% rented in 2017). And somewhere in there mortgage laws got significantly tighter - no need for pesky investors to be the cause of less mortgages.

So go figure, right? Lots of reasons and complexity in there.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#490
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>~30 years later, you've deprecated it down to an effective value of $0 >An no one will now rent, since your building has an effective value of $0 since it has become crap. Are you really in good faith trying to argue that nobody will rent a house that is 30+ years old?

He's saying that you factored in the depreciation deduction, but never factored in the expenses of related to keeping the property in good shape. So you either left them out of your math, or you planned to do zero upkeep (hence, "nobody would rent it")

Bingo - I'm surprised so many didn't understand the thread flow and jumped on this....
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