Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#481

Post by jnwatson » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

An important point that’s missed is that working in an office is dramatically worse now than it was when I started my career in the late 90’s.

I had my own office as intern. When I needed focus time (which is a lot of time as a developer), I could close a door.

Especially with Apple’s open-concept HQ, the delta between WFH and office is larger than it has to be.

The market is speaking. Apple pays well below the rest of FAANG already. Because of their policy, they can only recruit from a narrow, already highly-paid pool of developers. I know an Apple manager that is leaving partly because he can’t recruit anyone to come work for him.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#482

Post by EricE » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

stuff4ben wrote: post #478

EricE wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right? But seriously you hit upon a lot of topics us older folks seem to get and younger folks don't and also vice versa. It's also well within their rights to demand remote work and not have to go into the office at all. Perhaps younger minds are better at collaboration than older minds? And even as an older guy who had a "butts in seats" policy when I managed folks, I don'…

>You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right?

Yup, and when they get to my age funnily enough they will be sounding much like me.

Much like I sound like my parents despite swearing in my naivety to never be like them :)

Youth is indeed wasted on the young :p (it was wasted on me too!)

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#483

Post by banannaise » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

larrysalibra wrote: post #124

Apple knows what form of work is best for Apple. If it turns out they are wrong, they'll eventually suffer in the market as the result of making the wrong choice. That said, being remote or hybrid first seems like it would be a huge competitive advantage for a least some teams in Apple...like the Facetime team. I tried using their "new" like zoom Facetime meeting with a URL feature for a work-related meeting. The lac…

This is an anti-worker move.

If Apple suffers in the market as a result, their executives will be gently kicked out with substantial severance packages, and workers will be laid off en masse. That's an anti-worker result.

Win-win for executives, lose-lose for workers.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#484

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

Multicomp wrote: post #344

jasonlotito wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Zoom happy hour" or whatever cannot replace spontaneous lunches, after-work drinks, pre-work coffees, etc. You keep listing the benefits as if they are problems.

I can't reply to the reply because of comment depth but not being obligated or dragged to work after work hours, when you are not paid to work, to still continue to work, is a benefit to ones work life balance. After work drinks and pre-work drinks are just your work getting to consume more of your life than it pays you to do so, whether hourly work time not counted or salaried hours getting diluted.

> After work drinks and pre-work drinks are just your work getting to consume more of your life than it pays you to do so, whether hourly work time not counted or salaried hours getting diluted.

I think we're misunderstanding something here. These benefits have nothing to do about progressing the work's agenda. It's about connecting with my colleagues in a way outside of work. Socializing, increasing our networks and bonding. Sometimes work conversations happen, because it's something we have in common, but I'm certainly not 'working' at these outings.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#485

Post by burkaman » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #392

burkaman wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusion is that we should remove barriers whenever possible. Climbing a mountain is more difficult for people in a wheelchair, but that's just the way it is, we can't make the mountain equally accessible for everyone. Climbing the stairs of a skyscraper is more difficult for people in a wheelchair, but it doesn't have to be that way, we can install an elevator. Extend that to everything. We shouldn't ask peopl…

Chewing is so inconvenient. Feeding tubes for everyone! That’s a joke… we need the flexibility to cater to those who require it. We don’t need to make the baseline match the minimum. I think ADA and other items do well in this regard. So, just let a person WFH if attendance is overly inconvenient. It’s not the standard expectation. If working in the office is a baseline then It doesn’t mean they get to move to anothe…

> I think this wasn’t really much of an issue before Covid. Why is it now?

It was. The ADA was the result of an enormous amount of struggle and activism, and that movement continues to the present. Reach out to a local disability rights organization (I guarantee there's one near you) and ask if they had any concerns about office work before Covid. I'd also recommend the documentary Crip Camp if you're not familiar with this part of American history.

Edit: Here's an article from the start of the pandemic with lots of quotes relevant to your question. Sorry for the archive link, the site seems to be down right now.

> Watching these accommodations become available in a wide-spread way so quickly has been really painful. It hurts not only because I could have benefited from accommodations like this throughout my education, but because there are so many others who could have benefited, or were forced to drop out of school, or quit their jobs because their school or employer told them they were impossible to accommodate. These accommodations have always been possible but acknowledging that requires acknowledging the ableism behind their denial.

- https://web.archive.org/web/20200329102738/https://www.teenv...

It's a quick read and it's very good, I recommend reading it. Most of the issues discussed could be most easily addressed by allowing full remote work. Also, many of the people quoted have "invisible disabilities" - you may have coworkers like them without realizing it. This isn't just about ramps and elevators and other common accommodations.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#486

Post by banannaise » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #450

lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

Quoted post unavailable.

> There are tons of companies out there; it's going to be far easier to find one with a better match to you than trying to bend your existing company to your will.

No, it isn't. Businesses tend to play "follow the leader", so the ability to find a company offering substantially different work conditions is limited.

When facing a cartel, the solution is not "find an alternative". The idea of a cartel is to limit alternatives!

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#487

Post by banannaise » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #443

lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

From the OC: "They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce." I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no…

> I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means.

So do you plan to learn what it means, or do you believe that language should remain exactly as it was at some arbitrary point in the past?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#488

Post by ironman1478 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

I just got an offer from Apple in a mixed HW/SW role (a role that I am allowed to perform remotely at my current company). They are offering me more money than my current employer, but their remote work policy is awful and their general benefits are meh (not many days off) so I am declining the offer. I know Apple would be amazing to work for especially for the team I interview for, but they are shooting themselves in the foot with these policies.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#489

Post by banannaise » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #364

maccard wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a remote work advocate. > Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? Of course it's not an exact equivalent, but it doesn't need to be. Anecdotally speaking, the number of whiteboard meetings I had that I wanted to have were about 1 per year. Remote workers use tools like Notion, Miro, Jetbrains Code With me which have many/more of th…

> Honestly in a business setting with "trusted" coworkers, less so. I tend to take what my colleagues say at face value. That's... not all that body language conveys? Body language helps with basic things like "Oh, Amy is trying to break in and is struggling to make her point", or "Hmm, Doug looks like he's concerned about something, I should ask him his opinion". Digital A/V communication tools also bring with them…

> Body language helps with basic things like "Oh, Amy is trying to break in and is struggling to make her point", or "Hmm, Doug looks like he's concerned about something, I should ask him his opinion".

I'm autistic. My body language conveys things that are interpreted incorrectly by nearly everyone, particularly in management. This leads to me having to explain repeatedly that no, that's not what I'm experiencing at all, please stop.

When people don't get those cues from me, they understand me better, not worse.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#490

Post by birdyrooster » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

lghh wrote: post #463

listless wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.

I have significantly advanced my career working remote full time. You sound like you personally have been unable to advance your career and instead of being introspective about it are blaming it on remote work as a concept. Period.

You are the exception that proves the rule.