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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#481

Post by [deleted] »

majormajor wrote: post #428
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

Do you disagree with the following re-formulations: Some observable differences are due to social factors. Some observable differences by certain groups are the result of past actions by other groups. You should favor policies to correct for the result of past harms. One cannot reasonably claim that no groups in the US are still disadvantaged today due to actions taken on a centuries-long timescale. It seems willfull…

[deleted]

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#482

Post by gnicholas »

pishpash wrote: post #206
acomjean wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the "middle" tier math program in high school. But around sophomore year I wanted to get more into science/engineering but you can't switch tiers or catch up to those ahead of you, no matter if you're making extra effort and doing well. It was frustrating. In my case I got a letter about summer school at a local university. So I pre-calced over summer school to get moved into calculus in high school. It hone…

Many public schools take local college credits. There is always a path.

My understanding is that CA law requires public schools to accept any class that would receive credit by the UCs. They don't always, and I believe some bay area schools have been (successfully) sued over their non-compliance.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#483

Post by [deleted] »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #134
lordnacho wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you just let everyone take the same class and the same exams, but let the kids who have interest do extra work? Want to do calculus a year early? Here's the book, here's the exercises, why would I stop you?

What you suggest is already the case. The book and exercises are "here" for you to do, nobody to stop you. It's called the internet. The calculus police doesn't come get you if you're reading a calc book in 10th grade. It's just that you don't have any way of getting instruction or school credit - so you are very unlikely to be successful, and not very likely to have your university credit you as having mastered the…

[deleted]

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#484

Post by [deleted] »

zmgsabst wrote: post #381
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do most public schools really have the capacity to train students for serious art careers? At least in dance and music, at the highest levels everything is purely student driven (school dance and music is typically not super competitive for the serious artist) and presumably visual art is as well. Unless you go to an arts high school, but there aren't that many of those

I went to two high schools, one very poor and one moderately wealthy. Both had audition programs in art for “advanced” classes (both music and drawing), where students were matched with more serious training and where their bands went to competitions and drawings were entered in regional shows. I think you’re confusing “good, on track for professional” with “absolute top tier” — many students from regular schools go…

[deleted]

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#485

Post by zdragnar »

namelessoracle wrote: post #362
zozbot234 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't get a college degree without passing the College Algebra weedout course (let alone Calculus, which is required for the bulk of STEM courses), and you can only realistically pass College Algebra by getting a lot of rigorous math in K-12. Lowering the bar is doing every student a disservice, and the most vulnerable students will be the hardest hit.

You'd think that but there are work arounds. Yes pretty much every college requires "college algebra". But some schools have "college algebra for stem majors" vs "college algebra for non stem majors". Guess which one is easier, has lots of bonus credit and extra curricular stuff to earn extra credit. (You attended the college showing of "vagely related math movie?! Here's 10 points on your final!") And also grades on…

One of my favorite courses was an into to geology course I took on a lark. Turned out everyone (including the professor) called it "rocks for jocks". It was incredibly easy, and years after being out of college I don't recall much of anything I learned there that I didn't already know from high school or earlier, but I do remember the professor at least made the material engaging.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#486

Post by crackercrews »

TimPC wrote: post #303

Something is rotten in the state of academia when looking at the evidence there are mathematicians, scientists and social scientists standing bravely in favour of a high bar and a quality education program in mathematics. On the other side of the argument you have people from the Department of Education who specialize in Mathematics Education who seem happy to lower the bar as far as possible in the name of equality.…

> On the other side of the argument you have people from the Department of Education who specialize in Mathematics Education who seem happy to lower the bar as far as possible in the name of equality.

They should rename the Department of Education the Department of Equity. By pushing frameworks like this, they show that they are less interested in education and more interested in achieving equity. They'll even privilege equity at the expense of actual education.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#487

Post by munk-a »

nradov wrote: post #474
munk-a wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the situation on the ground you can comment that it'd be great to stop de-valuing college degrees but I think it's pretty clear that ship has sailed. A lot of jobs do unnecessarily demand college degrees, even going so far as to accept irrelevant degrees... anytime you see "Our ideal candidate has a BS from an accredited university" you can be confident that an arbitrary and discouraging requirement is being pl…

Employers only demand unnecessary college degrees because it's a quick and easy way to filter down a huge stack of applications. If there were fewer college grads available in the labor market then employers will just remove that filter and hire based on other criteria. It's not like they're going to leave those jobs open.

Does the why materially change what new market entrants experience? Right now a good chunk of High School students assume a college education will be necessary to get any sort of good job, unless we can reverse that conception[1] college will remain an assumed necessity for most folks.

I don't disagree at all that it's mostly BS, but, much like the stock market, it is functioning primarily on the social valuation - and currently degrees are seen as close to a necessity to enter the job market.

1. The only thing I've seen on this front is some advertising for trades work which can pay equal or better to non-SF software engineers.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#489

Post by deathanatos »

hintymad wrote: post #307
deathanatos wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me & my sister grew up, like you say, in the same family, same parents, same pressure. We largely went to the same schools, even. She probably acceled further, academically, than I did. (She probably went to the more prestigious college, her GPA/SAT/etc. were better, she earned a doctorate, while I got a BS…) Without pointing to a vague notion of "we're different people", I think there's a few key things that were di…

To digress a bit: good education will be a finite resource as we have finite number of good educators and good schools. I don't think it's possible for everyone to access good education, especially given that we have different definition for "good education". Saying everyone should go to MIT (or any scarce education resource) is like saying living in beach property is human right. Maybe so, but it'll be a different t…

> Saying everyone should go to MIT

Not suggesting that, and it's wrong anyways: the point here is that we, as a society, want people to have a basic floor of an education by the time they reach adulthood. Not necessarily MIT, but not nothing either, and the track I was on for a bit in my childhood was closer to "nothing" than it was to "decent", and it was certainly way off course if I were to shoot for MIT.

For the students that never left that track… I cannot imagine that school did much, if anything, to produce a citizen with a high-school education.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#490

Post by WalterBright »

xvedejas wrote: post #467
WalterBright wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pretty much every college requires "college algebra". Caltech didn't. In fact, they expect you to know calculus before entering. I didn't, and that nearly capsized my college career before it left the dock.

They now do have a remedial kind of class, "Math 1d", which is to be taken concurrently with Math 1a. I was placed into it after not trying very hard on my placement test, but they let me drop it when I told them I didn't need it.

> They now do have a remedial kind of class

Sad to hear that. It suggests their admissions process has succumbed. When I attended, it was very rare for the admissions people to admit someone who couldn't do the work. I only knew one who couldn't.

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