Live data from Hacker News

Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

yanmaani.github.io

481–490 of 822 posts

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#481
PoW only works for the biggest chains that use the specific heading Algo. Smaller PoW chains regularly experience re-orgs.

IMO PoW for the bigger chains produce far too much waste & none of the supposed PoS attacks have materialized even though hundreds of millions are up for grabs

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#482
post #440
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What stops miners from sending their tokens somewhere, then hard forking from a previous block where they didn’t send them? This has a clear answer in PoW, but not in your scheme

Easy, you put the transaction in the previous block. So the miner can only mine a block if they have already made the expenditure.

What if I create a whole new chain? Will the transactions at the very beginning of that chain have to be added to the big, old chain? How far back do the common ancestors of two chains have to be for your auto-merging to happen? What happens if two histories conflict? Then in Version Control parlance, we have a "merge conflict".

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you would take a job paying a cent per day, because your time is free?

We are talking about computer time here. It's cheap to spin up 1000 tiny aws instances.

This is silly, computer time certainly isn't free and almost anything scaled up on a cloud service can become very expensive within minutes. Just go look at the poor developers that make 1 mistake in their Lambda code and get charged $80,000.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PoS is Plutocracy on Steroids. You've outlined only one, the most obvious and least probable, mode of failure. The more subtle and wildly prevalent failure mode is that the consensus will be set by the few whales, who will maximize their rent extraction at the expense of numerous small players, which will include most later adopters, aka the entire population of Earth. It's already visible on smaller scale in DAOs, e…

>> consensus will be set by the few whales, who will maximize their rent extraction at the expense of numerous small players Aren't you just describing capitalism here? The people that created the system and own the biggest share of it have gigantic influence on it. Matter of fact, isn't that exactly what happened in ethereums PoW network, too? The developers decided to switch to PoS regardless of what the current pa…

> Aren't you just describing capitalism here?

It fairly describes every political system and economic system that has ever existed or will ever exist. What's being described is how humans always organize systems in regards to political and economic power.

See: Socialism, Communism, Fascism. It applies just the same to those. Except in those systems they'll murder you and your entire family, then burn your village/town to the ground, if you attempt to compete with the rulers or party (Chavez, Castro, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Kim, Putin, Erdogan, Lukashenko, etc.).

Whereas I can freely compete with Coca Cola, Tesla, Salesforce, Splunk, DigitalOcean, Cloudflare, Starbucks, 3M and most other companies if I'm able to. Nobody is stopping me from inventing a new coffee drink and going after Starbucks with it, or setting up a better coffee chain on the corner. Nobody is stopping me from inventing a better soda-competing drink (see: Monster or Red Bull or 5hour Energy; those people weren't assassinated by the soda cartel). Nobody is preventing me from starting the next great convenience store (ask 7-11 how they feel about upcoming Sheetz; or ask KFC how they feel about Chic-fil-A).

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, they have a choice lol, no they don't. a certain hash wins, every ~10 minutes. that hash is calculated from sha(block, nonce), where nonce is the randomized part that miner mutates to get different hashes. once a hash that satisfies the protocol is found - that's it, you can't choose a different block to append to the chain. it is just laughable that i have to explain this level of basics.

Okay, and who chooses the block ? (Hint: it's the node that wins leader election). Maybe this article will help you understand just how nonessential the fact that the block is part of the SHA actually is: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/nsdi16/nsdi16... . Please read the whole article, and then come back so we can have a discussion on equal footing.

> Okay, and who chooses the block?

well certainly not the winner of the "election", because by the time that "election" starts, the block is already constructed.

and i'm not going to read any of your links until you actually start understanding the basics of bitcoin protocol. though your lack of understanding explains perfectly why you fall for scammy bells and whistles of competing bitcoin-wannabes. "bitcoin new generation". lol, give me a break.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not what is happening on these platforms. r/thedonald had millions of subscribers and not a single one was forced to listen. Then it was banned by reddit for thoughtcrime.

You could have brought up hard left subreddits getting banned too. Like Chapo. So it doesn’t seem like only the right is persecuted/appearing to continue the trope of how the right are such victims.

Same thing

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we also ban clothes dryers, Christmas lights, porn, and video games? Each of those uses significantly more energy than Bitcion. If not, who gets to decide what a "good" use of electricity is?

There is a difference between each of those uses of electricity and PoW. PoW is throwing away electricity for the sake of it, and resists getting more efficient. If the goal is for the bitcoin network to cost $1M to do a single double spend, then PoW has to use $1M worth of electricity every 10 minutes. Let's say we live in a future where we suddenly have 10x as much electricity. Due to supply and demand, electricity…

I think Bitcoin is possible without PoW; decentralized peer to peer network in which nodes verify transactions and make agreements on which transaction came first and then draw consensus. But then someone needs to figure out how new coins would be distributed or in another words what incentive would be to verify transactions.

Btw Satoshi introduced blockchain checkpoint so no attacker can fork the existing Bitcoin chain and make a competing one.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#488

Whether PoS will work, I don't know. But the author didn't realize that PoW is certainly doomed. PoW miners tend to spend more and more resources on finding blocks, until the cost approaches the rewards. But the rewards go up as the cryptocurrency becomes more popular, because the price and transaction fees go up. Therefore, a PoW cryptocurrency tends to "eat the world" as it becomes bigger. That's why Bitcoin is alr…

Using the same environmental concern logic, the carbon footprint of traditional banking, which still hauls around, protects, and produces real currency, plastic cards, and financing for every other destructive activity… rather dwarfs Bitcoin.

Where are all your posts pointedly taking apart the system you are surely heavily invested in?

You’re part of the problem by being part of human society. Collective economic inaction must be part of the solution.

Producing less superfluous junk at scale must be part of the solution. That means our individual narratives around value stores must change; traditional banking scales even worse than Bitcoin.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The leader who wins has the privilege of proposing the next block. No, the hash that you win with, deterministically points to the only possible block that you can “propose”. Your understanding is completely backwards. You seriously don’t know how bitcoin works.

Whether leader election happens at the same time as the block is proposed or not is completely irrelevant to the nature of the problem from a distributed systems perspective. The point is that in each round, the leader both wins the election, and proposes the next block. There are other variants of proof of work in which the leader is allowed to continue generating new blocks for a period of time and (AFAIK) these in…

You are really stretching, man. The term “leader” does not really apply in this mechanism.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#490

When you see articles like this, buy more Ethereum not less. It means they are scared of it.

Who is "they"? Why would they be scared of it? Did you buy more Ethereum after seeing this article? And if you did not see this article you would be still be buying Ethereum, but "less" right?
Post reply on HN