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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is not about “watering down” math classes, but the opposite; it is about applying evidence to improve the quality and equity of mathematical instructions. This ignores a majority of students that are are well severed through the current curriculum and would advance more slowly under the proposal.

> This ignores a majority of students that are are well severed through the current curriculum and would advance more slowly under the proposal. The framework cites the research that that isn't the case, where is yours that says it is?

Can you point me to where in in the framework it has the data? I couldn't find it

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't about whether an individual's academic performance is affected by genetics. The question is: are differences in overall (say median) academic performance of broad racial groupings (black, white, asian, hispanic, other) mostly the result of differences in genetics? Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics.

> Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics. Lol what? So uh are white people more genetically suited for lacrosse like 80% of the PLL is white, and us black people are somehow genetically suited for basketball because the NBA is like 70% black? We should really look into these... lacrosse genes. And those basketball genes. Or not? https://scholarworks.wmich.ed…

Consider these two statements:

A) The differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics.

B) Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics.

You seem to be arguing against A (about which I expressed no opinion).

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#483
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

An old short story about enforced equality. Intelligent people had noise makers on ears to keep them from concentrating. Beautiful people were made to look like clowns.

No one could stand out, no one could excel.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#484
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an informal study done in the early 20th century, where a superintendent decided he didn’t think math was that useful and told the 4 poorest elementary schools in his district to stop teaching it. (He chose the poorest schools because he knew the parents wouldn’t put up as much of a fuss as at the wealthier schools.) They still taught how to count, read clocks, and make change, but besides that they had no…

Let's see that link, por favor

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201003...

(Additional references at the end of the article.)

Good to see someone trying it.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#485
This is bullshit. Not everyone has to be better in math, just like not everyone is better in music or language or biology. In fact for English learners they should spend first few years in just getting them to level in English. Fix the fundamentals and rest will follow. This is the opposite.

Delaying is not going to do thing for kids who are not into math, but will screw others who are into it.

Just imagine if Ramanujam has to wait till 9th grade to learn math.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#486
post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

> Why exactly is it that you aren’t taught courses like math, or history or language according to your ability instead of your age? That's exactly the question. Under Equitable Math, all children must always be at the same level up until the senior year, and Algebra will not be offered in middle school. Some children are ready for Algebra in middle school, and some aren't. This is the most critical point of contentio…

> Under Equitable Math, all children must always be at the same level up until the senior year

Are they really advocating putting all kids in the same math class regardless of ability? That seems completely insane to me. For some fraction of the class, literally handing them a textbook and telling them to go nuts would be better in every way. At the other end, some of those kids feel awful for holding the class back.

Could someone help me understand what the big picture is here? How does this actually help the under-privileged students in any way? Are they expecting that this will level the playing field for college admissions and the job market?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position is that kids should be taught math at an earlier age and schools should be properly staffed and funded to ensure positive learning outcomes for all students regardless of their socio-economic background because that will lead to more equal life outcomes.

Then you and TimTheTinker basically agree. The only noteworthy difference is defining acceptable failure rate, which neither of you did.

What's interesting is that beyond a certain threshold (perhaps around the left-hand normal distribution inflection point), further reducing failure rate ends up also reducing the rate of super-success among students in the same classroom.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#488

These efforts feel misguided. Black and Latino people aren't bad at math because of the language used in math education (most of the language seems neutral from what I remembered), it's because they are largely poor, due to structural racism or they are first generation immigrants who didn't come to work in tech or something. They're just poor and unfortunately it's hard to really do anything when you're poor in Amer…

If black students do worse mainly on account of poverty, why do wealthy black kids score worse than poor whites on the SAT?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2999198

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#489
The reasoning given in the framework seems sensible enough:

> Even for the highest-achieving students, pressures to use mathematics courses as social capital for advancement can often undercut efforts to promote learning with understanding. This often results in what some deem a “rush to calculus,” which has not helped students. Bressoud (2017) studied the mathematics pathways of students moving from calculus to college. He found that out of the 800,000 students who take calculus in high school, roughly 250,000 or 31.25 percent of students move ‘backwards’ and take precalculus, college algebra, or remedial mathematics. Roughly 150,000 students take other courses such as Business Calculus, Statistics, or no mathematics course at all. Another 250,000, retake Calculus 1 and of these students about 60 percent of them earn an A or B and 40 percent earn a C or lower. Only 150,000 or 19 percent of students go on to Calculus II. This signals that the approach that is so prevalent in schools––of rushing students to calculus, without depth of understanding––is not helping their long term mathematics preparation.

This basically lines up with my experience. I was in accelerated math and took AP Calc AB in High School. I got an A, but only by memorizing the symbol manipulation rules: I could't have explained why they worked. I don't think I could have even explained what calculus was for—and I was too busy trying to maximize my grades in 5 other AP classes to bother finding out. I got into my first choice of college and was sufficiently dissatisfied with math that I didn't take any classes in it until I was required to do so after I declared a major in Computer Science. I took Calc II and Linear algebra and got Cs in both.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#490
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if your S is sociology, your math requirements will be 0-2 units of calculus and a statistical methods course taught in the department. The secondary school preparation for such a program is called "stop taking math in 11th grade."

You're being snide and not actually constructive. E.g. here are requirements for molecular and cellular bio at UC Berkeley, which requires a 1 year sequence covering calculus, stats and combinatorics. Linear algebra and differential equations are not requirements. http://mcb.berkeley.edu/undergrad/major/major-requirements/r...

That sounds like it requires a high-school math sequence that prepares students for college calculus, doesn't it?

Edit: You hardly contradicted me. My claim was that the math requirements of non-engineering science majors were 0-2 semesters of calculus and a course on statistical methods. You added combinatorics, which I usually just see taught as part of that applied methods course, rather than a stand-alone semester of mathematical combinatorics (I welcome correction). This is exactly what the current secondary math curriculum leads up to: calculus.

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