Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022 • Hacker News Board

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#481

Post by nikau » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #115

hristov wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all this "simple" car may end up being more expensive. Doing a lot of the things the old mechanical way requires a lot of labor and labor is expensive nowadays. Having to use turning wires and vacuum tubes for instrument clusters, and a bunch of pull wires for controls... Not only would that be expensive it would require skills and equipment long lost today. Oh and the wind shield wipers -- it is possible to…

So true. Computing is very cheap nowadays. It is also very reliable. If you watch Sandy Munro's videos, he mentions often how his visits with Chinese car manufacturers go, when they discuss architecture options. Customers hold up a cell phone and ask "How can we make it more like this?". The cell phone got rid of separate components a long time ago. Everything's on one PCB, plus the display. And many things that used…

Everything on the one PCB is great, just ask Tesla owners that get stranded with a hardware failure, or need to reboot their screen for a software failure by holding down steering wheel buttons to get their car operable again.

The reason cars have lots of computers is for price - its cheaper to use a power and CAN data bus rather than have individual wires going from a central computer to each device.

For example, a door module can control the locks, windows and mirrors with just a 2 power wires and 2 thin wires for CAN bus.

Contrast this to old cars which had thick bundles of wires to power the mirror, doorlock and window motors from outside the door.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#482

Post by nikau » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:17 PM UTC

ok123456 wrote: post #233

CamperBob2 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of buying a car without A/C? You might save $1000 now, but you'll lose several thousand at trade-in time because no one else will want your car.

No parasitic power losses and it's one less system that needs to be maintained.

The power loss from an AC compressor with the clutch disengaged is negligible.

Modern AC also use variable displacement compressors which adjust load according to temperature, so once the cabin is cool they use a constant small amount of engine power rather than toggling to full power on and off like older designs.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#483

Post by nikau » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

mlavin wrote: post #67

caeril wrote: post #21

What I'll never understand is why carmakers don't take advantage of this situation and address a market that's been literally BEGGING for decades for a new product: A simple, basic car, with the ONLY electronic control being for: - Valve timing - Fuel injection - Oxygen and throttle - Emissions There's a market for budget and privacy oriented customers that all carmakers seem to have ignored for two decades now. Give…

Buy an old Dodge W250 with a 12-valve Cummins 6BT, and enjoy mechanical fuel injection and 160 hp. No emissions control, no timing chain or belt, no overhead cams, no aluminum block or heads, ABS is optional, no airbags.

And with that 15MPG fuel economy you get to give your maintenance savings to the gas station instead while you drive a slow uncomfortable car.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#484

Post by nikau » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:25 PM UTC

minhazm wrote: post #136

Tesla has done a decent job of mitigating some of the chip shortages since they are so vertically integrated. Though obviously Tesla produces way less cars than Toyota/Honda/VW. But other manufacturers simply can't do this even if they wanted to since they outsource most of this stuff. > “We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matte…

> Tesla has done a decent job of mitigating some of the chip shortages since they are so vertically integrated

That and the fact they ten times less vehicles than other manufacturers like VW or Toyota per year.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#485

Post by jaclaz » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #71

caeril wrote: post #21

What I'll never understand is why carmakers don't take advantage of this situation and address a market that's been literally BEGGING for decades for a new product: A simple, basic car, with the ONLY electronic control being for: - Valve timing - Fuel injection - Oxygen and throttle - Emissions There's a market for budget and privacy oriented customers that all carmakers seem to have ignored for two decades now. Give…

First of all this "simple" car may end up being more expensive. Doing a lot of the things the old mechanical way requires a lot of labor and labor is expensive nowadays. Having to use turning wires and vacuum tubes for instrument clusters, and a bunch of pull wires for controls... Not only would that be expensive it would require skills and equipment long lost today. Oh and the wind shield wipers -- it is possible to…

I think you chose a few wrong examples, power steering and brake assistance (simple depression from the engine) were a thing much before electronics became ubiquitous, as well as central locks (just a bunch of solenoids), the issue is much more with safety-related systems like ABS and engine (and pollution) control.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#486

Post by dapids » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

Lord_Baltimore wrote: post #359

dapids wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Scalpers perform a social service" Good luck finding anyone willing to recognize this absurd point. > "the problem is low competition" Tell that to the GPU market.

I recognize this "absurd" point.

Right, but most don't. Maybe try and understand what I'm saying.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#487

Post by dapids » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

exporectomy wrote: post #334

dapids wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Scalpers perform a social service" Good luck finding anyone willing to recognize this absurd point. > "the problem is low competition" Tell that to the GPU market.

You disagree but with no reasons. You should consider why you hold that belief.

When did I say I disagree?

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#488

Post by dapids » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #333

dapids wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Scalpers perform a social service" Good luck finding anyone willing to recognize this absurd point. > "the problem is low competition" Tell that to the GPU market.

> Good luck finding anyone willing to recognize this Indeed, most people are pathologically incapable of performing utilitarian reasoning and have a very hard time with this point. Very unfortunate, because that's what informs most economic policy.

Yes, this is exactly my point, thanks for putting it that way.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#489

Post by Gravityloss » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #474

Gravityloss wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. Computing is very cheap nowadays. It is also very reliable. If you watch Sandy Munro's videos, he mentions often how his visits with Chinese car manufacturers go, when they discuss architecture options. Customers hold up a cell phone and ask "How can we make it more like this?". The cell phone got rid of separate components a long time ago. Everything's on one PCB, plus the display. And many things that used…

What if you don't want OTA features, but a simple car you can fix separately form the manufacturer's supply chain? This might not be a huge concern for the HN demographic, but it is for developing countries operating whatever vehicles the EU deems too dangerous or polluting for their roads. There are no PCBs making their way to Central Asia. The problem with black boxes is that they work until they don't. In some cas…

Yeah, there's some problems with the approach. But I guess if you had an old one, you could install some open source software, or replace the whole computer. I assume it would cost a few hundred bucks at most. It's peanuts compared to engine, or in electric car, battery work.

The main board on an iphone is taking a really small part of the whole nowadays. https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/JtBACGbyZcYSdBfL.hug... Besides maybe some machine vision things, the computing in a car seems to have very low performance requirements.

Sensors, actuators and controllers etc are another thing then, but they're different.

Re: Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant until 2022

#490

Post by lmm » Sun, Oct 03, 2021, 4:26 AM UTC

puszczyk wrote: post #413

lmm wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they make it possible for people/entities who can afford to waste most money to get them instead of those first/lucky. But how is that a better outcome? It's not "waste", it's the people who are willing to spend the most money, which are presumably the people who want/need the thing most, so it's better than allocating the thing at random. > And why should this involve people spending more money, and all the delta…

> It's not "waste", it's the people who are willing to spend the most money, which are presumably the people who want/need the thing most, so it's better than allocating the thing at random. It’s not a waste, but it’s not best allocation either. It seems like the chips will go to established players with large and cheap credit lines and ossify the market even more. The scalpers are not like market makers who are regu…

> It’s not a waste, but it’s not best allocation either. It seems like the chips will go to established players with large and cheap credit lines and ossify the market even more.

Credit is cheap, and there's no particular barrier to entry (unless we're talking about things like backroom deals with concert promoters, which I'm sure does happen, but isn't an essential part of the business), so I'd expect this to be a fairly competitive market.

> The scalpers are not like market makers who are regulated, provide both bid and ask, and whose spread is usually quite small in comparison to scalpers.

Market maker regulation is relatively recent, and market making is recognised as having served a beneficial function long before that. Many of these ticket sites do list bid prices for your tickets as well. The spread is pretty wide compared to listed equities that trade hundreds of times a second, sure, but if you compare a single concert's ticket with a stock or bond that trades at a similar rate (which would be, like, the bottom end of the pink sheets) it's not so bad.