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An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

appleprivacyletter.com

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Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider it’s not very interesting to argue with someone who is set in their ways, and the lack of counter argument is a lack of interest, not a superiority of viewpoint. I have yet to hear a good counter argument though. If I had heard one, I would have changed my mind. So, I don't think I'm set in my ways. (I actually change my mind often when presented with new evidence!) I will always consider downvotes without…

You're being downvoted for eschewing website guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Oh yeah? Which one?

I kind of doubt it because I've been censored for simply asking very straightforward questions with zero adjectives.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#482
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your position is to simply deny that child porn or predation is a serious problem. I outlined that this was one of the sides in the debate - I.e. you take position 2, and have no empathy for position 1. The problem is that this is a political trap. You can’t win position 2 by painting technologists as uncaring or dismissive. ‘Think of the children’ works for a reason.

I don’t believe people sharing child porn on iPhones is a serious problem, no. Laptops, desktops, sure. My position is that this system has far more likely harm than potential good. It’s not worth it. It has nothing to do with not recognizing another side.

Do you believe that sexual predators sharing images with children on iPhones is a problem?

> It has nothing to do with not recognizing another side.

It seems like you are simply stating that the other side’s priorities are wrong.

That seems like a reasonable belief that won’t help anyone with the problem of creeping surveillance.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to downvote people a couple of years ago who were shedding doubt on Apple’s commitment to privacy. Boy. I was so wrong. I fell for the Marketing and it made sense at the time “Their business is selling hardware and services, not ads. Ofcourse they are privacy advocates”. Pass laws and legislation. I admit I was wrong and it’s refreshing to see this whole thing unfold before my eyes. It just solidified my opini…

I'm just surprised they did it for CP and not terrorism.

I think it's terrorism, and CP.

I have a feeling the CIA, or FBI, had a little chat with Tim Cook, and Tim caved into the pressure.

Who knows they might have some very embarrassing info about the man, and used it to get what they wanted.

I guarantee government, including the IRS, Immigration, etc. will be accessing Apples severs.

At least we won't have to listen to Apple privacy commercials anymore.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know these are photos you requested to upload to iCloud , which would already under the existing system be scanned once they get there, right? But if they get scanned first and then uploaded to Apple that's "absolutely batshit crazy"?? Edit reply in here because I'm rate-limited by drive-by downvoters: Which part isn't clear to you? - That they already scanned iCloud photos for such material? Here is an article f…

No, that part is not clear to me at all. If they would be "scanned anyway", why would this system exist at all?

Because not every photo is uploaded to iCloud.

If you use iCloud, this is already happening today, probably.

If you don’t use iCloud, yes, the idea is local scan, match hash, then upload for manual review. The involuntary upload will have been covered by the EULA.

I’m not endorsing the idea. But this seems to be the only way it could work.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#485

I know the privacy approach Apple has been pushing was just marketing, but I didn't care too much because I enjoyed my iPhone and M1 macbook. Because of this decision (and the fact that my iPhone more-or-less facilitates poor habits throughout my life), I'm considering moving completely out of the Apple ecosystem. Does anyone have any recommendations for replacements? * On laptops: I have an X1 carbon extreme running…

For laptops I'd recommend the framework laptop (https://frame.work/). It's thin, powerful, and modular.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#486
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t believe people sharing child porn on iPhones is a serious problem, no. Laptops, desktops, sure. My position is that this system has far more likely harm than potential good. It’s not worth it. It has nothing to do with not recognizing another side.

Do you believe that sexual predators sharing images with children on iPhones is a problem? > It has nothing to do with not recognizing another side. It seems like you are simply stating that the other side’s priorities are wrong. That seems like a reasonable belief that won’t help anyone with the problem of creeping surveillance.

Do you believe you can stop people from sharing imagines pre-determined to be exploitative and illegal by a central authority who has already logged and recorded the hash of that photo with children by deploying a universal scan system to all phones - when phones aren't a primary tool of trafficing illegal content?

>It seems like you are simply stating that the other side’s priorities are wrong.

This is a juvenile attempt at a nobility argument. That you can do anything as long as the goal is noble. Just as I wrote first, anything if it’s “for the children”. This is how all sorts of abuses are carried out under the four horsemen.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#487

So the M1 has turned me off of Apple products because, quite frankly, I don't want to spend (more) of my time fixing shit a trillion dollar company broke and doesn't care to fix. This though, this will be the nail in the coffin with my 25 year relationship to Apple. I probably wouldn't even have batted an eye at it to be honest, iff, Apple hadn't been selling me on the idea that their platform is "private and secure.…

> " has absolutely zero chance of being detected once you're generating the hashes until too many lives are ruined. " ... the alerts go to Apple for human review. You think their human review won't notice a garbled nonsense picture triggering a false positive?

Have you not been reading about the App Store review discrepancies for the last decade??

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#488
post #416

US Government: We suspect the person in this photo of committing a crime. Here is your subpoena, Apple. You are directed to scan all iPhone and iCloud storage for any pictures matching this NeuralHash and report to us where you find them. Chinese Government: Here is the NeuralHash for Tienanmen square. Delete all photos you find matching this or we will bar you from China. Apple has at this point already admitted thi…

As far as I can see: 1. This is a serious attempt to build a privacy preserving solution to child pornography. 2. The complaints are all slippery slope arguments that governments will force Apple to abuse the mechanism. These are clearly real concerns and even Tim Cook admits that if you build a back door, bad people will use it. However: Child pornography and the related abuse is widely thought of as a massive probl…

I appreciate this well thought out and logical approach.

The issue I have is with the way this is presented.

I actually really like the local-only features related to making underage users second-guess sending/viewing potentially harmful content. IMO this is a huge problem especially since most do not have the context to understand how things live forever on the internet, and is likely a source of a large percentage of this "Known CSAM material" in circulation. I think it's a great step in the right direction.

But the scan-and-report content on your device approach is where it becomes problematic. It's sold as protecting privacy because of a magic box "the cryptographic technology" somehow prevents abuse or use outside the scope it is intended for. But just like this entire function can be added with an update, it can also be modified with an update. Apple pretends the true reality of this feature is somehow solved by technology, glosses over the technical details with catchphrases that 99.9% of people that read it won't understand. "It's 100% safe and effective and CANNOT IN ANY WAY BE ABUSED because, cryptographic technology." They're forcing their users to swallow a sugar-coated pill with very deep ramifications that only a very small percentage will fully comprehend.

I'm 100% for doing anything reasonably possible in the advancement of this cause. But you're correct in that this is "one fear is more important than another fear." And I don't think anyone can say how slippery this slope is or where it can go. I also don't really feel like you can even quantify in a way that they can be compared the harm caused by CSAM or mass surveillance. So a judgement call on "which is worse" really isn't possible because the possibilities for new and continued atrocities in both cases are infinite.

But at least in the US, a line is crossed when something inside your private life is subject to review and search by anyone else even when you have not committed a crime. If you want to search my house, you must, at least on paper, establish probable cause before a judge will grant you a search warrant.

"It's okay, these specially trained agents are only here to look for just drugs. They've promised they won't look at anything else and aren't allowed to arrest you unless they find a large quantity of drugs" -- Would you be okay with these agents searching every house in the nation in the name of preventing drug abuse(which also is extremely harmful to many people including children even when they are not direct users)?

The argument "well just don't use apple" doesn't stand either. A landlord can't just deputize someone to rummage through my house looking for known illegal things to report. Even though it's technically not "my house" and you could argue that if I don't like it, well I should just move somewhere else. But I don't think that can be argued as reasonable. Our phones are quickly becoming like our houses in that many people have large portions of their private lives inside them.

I can't quite put my finger on the exact argument so I apologize for not being able to articulate this more clearly, but there is something with removing the rights of large groups of people to protect a much smaller subset of those people, from an act perpetrated by bad actors. You are somehow allowing bad actors to inflict further damage, in excess of the direct results of their actions, on huge populations of people here. I know there is a more eloquent way to descibe this concept, but doing so just doesn't seem like the right course of action.

And I'm sorry but I am not smarter than all of the people that worked on this, so I don't have a better solution that would accomplish the same goal, but I know that this solution has a huge potential to enable massive amounts of abuse by nations who do not respect what much of the world considers basic human rights.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#489
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Child pornography and the related abuse is a massive problem >proposals for better solution How do you define "massive"? What makes you think that current approach is not working well enough? Of course, it's really bad as soon as the very first case. But we need to go beyond the sensationalist articles which talk about millions of pictures outthere. Even though this is, yes, a problem. In the US, it looks like the n…

> child pornography cases is going down each year, from 1,593 in 2016 to 1,023 cases in 2020 Sam Harris (and the FBI) would likely say this is because detection is getting harder thanks to encryption. The only authority on this is actually the FBI, but I presume you wouldn’t trust them. That distrust is reasonable, but irrelevant. What matters is that many people will trust them and see the fear as legitimate. Arguin…

>One winning move would be to take the problem seriously

What makes you think that the problem is not taken seriously? I am no specialist, but it looks like cases are investigated and people are going to jail. You say that it is not the case, so I am curious what leads you to this statement.

Yes, policies can be based on fears and opinion, but some numbers and rationality usually help make better decisions. I'd love to hear something more precise than fears and personal opinion, including the FBI of course.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#490

US Government: We suspect the person in this photo of committing a crime. Here is your subpoena, Apple. You are directed to scan all iPhone and iCloud storage for any pictures matching this NeuralHash and report to us where you find them. Chinese Government: Here is the NeuralHash for Tienanmen square. Delete all photos you find matching this or we will bar you from China. Apple has at this point already admitted thi…

I get this sentiment but the known-bad-image-scanning technology is not new. That’s not what Apple announced. Many tech services already do that, which already enables the slippery slope you’re illustrating here. I’m not trying to minimize the danger of that slope. But as someone who is interested in the particulars of what Apple announced specifically, it is getting tiresome to wade through all the comments from peo…

But now its on your device.

"Its just when you upload to icloud or recieve an iMessage" they say. BUT the software's on your device forever. What about next year? What about after an authoritarian goverment approaches them? By 2023 it might be searching non-uploaded photos.

You can always not use cloud tech like PhotoDNA but you can't not use software BUILT IN to your device. Especially when its not transparent.

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