Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

telex.hu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 542 posts

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#481

Post by AnimalMuppet »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

Is it better to shatter itself, or to have this within it? Do you want the EU to be smaller, or to be a bloc without ideals?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#482

Post by jpetso »

remarkEon wrote: post #461
jpetso wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having written this, I think it's worth pointing out the main flaw that I see in nationalism: it's that it uses culture and nations as a proxy for principles, as opposed to digging for the actual principles underneath. As an example, I stand for freedom of speech, in the form of a diverse, largely independent set of publishers and authors that allows me to make up my own mind by exposing me to different viewpoints. M…

>the main flaw that I see in nationalism: it's that it uses culture and nations as a proxy for principles, as opposed to digging for the actual principles underneath. I think the problem that you are going to run in to is that culture and nations as a proxy for principles works pretty well since those things are highly correlated. Unless you have a strong civic identity that aggressively assimilates and ensures respe…

> Unless you have a strong civic identity that aggressively assimilates and ensures respect of those civic norms, you have an inevitable clash that just becomes a question of scale.

I'd like to suggest multicultural cities such as Toronto as an example that preserving cultural backgrounds and integrating with the rest of society aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. You have a broad mix of people from (among others) European, East Asian, South Asian and Middle Eastern backgrounds here and while all of the usual discussions are alive and well (left vs. right, urban vs. suburban, immigration vs. bubbling), people's cultures are just not the main issue dividing people. You'd think that with a lot of Muslim immigrants, Canada would have larger problems with value differences, but guess what, most people are just people and want a good life for themselves and their families. Nothing new here, move along.

The point is that full-on assimilation isn't necessary. Celebrate shared values. Celebrate diverse backgrounds and differences, too. I don't have to tell a Muslim woman that she can't wear religious clothing, just like I don't like it if her husband tells her the opposite. I can just grab food with the two of them and discuss tech, ethics, religion and whatever, just like with regular people, because they are regular people. The kids just see a lot of different ways of people living their lives and learn that it's okay to be different.

> In your hypothetical, how exactly would this situation [Islamic Law / autocratic dictatorship] come about?

Recent history suggests that there is a template: a politician gets voted into office, gets drunk on power, finds a common enemy and sells it to the people, changes elections and eventually the constitution to remain in power, kills the independent press, persecutes opposition leaders and intellectuals with dangerous ideas.

Turkey and Hungary are well on their way. Russia has arrived. Iran and China went the revolution route, that works too, although probably requires more of a flawed system to begin with.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#483

Post by jq-r »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #457
jq-r wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you put it that way, the "war" has already been won by Germany/Austria here in Croatia. There is next to no Italian influence (only in one small region). Everything else is German/Austrian owned. Banks, Telecoms, big business, construction etc. Most of the houses on the coast and islands are theirs as well. EU needs our country just to be minimally stable. Stable enough so millions of foreigners can come to their…

As someone living in Austria, I noticed this as well. Rich Austrians own all big businesses and all desirable properties in Croatia. I wonder what will happen to Croatia, politically, in the future, when the young there find themselves priced out of their own country by richer foreigners. Seems like uncontrolled capitalism has enabled a form of economic colonialism, as proven further by the money printer let loose du…

I'm glad that I'm not the only one seeing this effect. And economic colonialism is a succinct way of putting it as you said.

I mostly blame the government for it. If we had a better economy we could compete and the prices for us locals wouldn't be prohibitively expensive. But no, our government (and most of opposition) is a corrupt criminal organization so there is no way out of it. We're just getting poorer and poorer relatively speaking unfortunately.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#484

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

nindalf wrote: post #476
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself. I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it i…

> the question of choice, mandates and so on in regards to government imposing choices upon you. The government isn't imposing these requirements arbitrarily, it's your fellow citizens imposing it through the mechanism of government. For example, Big Government will outlaw and penalise littering not for the sake of it, but because that's what citizens want from their democratically elected government. And as a citize…

> I didn't argue against democracy. I argued against putting the population on a pedestal.

Please note that democracy literally is the rule of the people. You simply cannot state that you are not arguing against democracy and in next breath say that people should not be on its pedestal, because, theoretically, people are its ruling class. If it is a democracy, people are on its pedestal. That is the main weakness of democracy. People, as a whole, are idiots.

Your issue appears to be with commonly held beliefs that are not your beliefs. But that is a very different discussion.

> And as a citizen who fully supports restrictions in response to a pandemic - IMO the government can't require you to get vaccinated. But you can't demand to be allowed into nightclubs and cruise ships while unvaccinated. Fair?

I have zero problem with that statement.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#485

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

nindalf wrote: post #479
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? Just top of my head: Well, there is an argument to be made from purely economical perspective, avg. earner did see some improvement. Regardless of whether you think tax cuts were a good idea, Trump tax cuts did have intended effects ( even though they also added to an ever increasing deficit ). He did pull out of JCPOA, which some of his el…

> He did pull out of JCPOA, which some of his electorate actually wanted for various reasons How's that worked out for them? People in Appalachia feeling pleased about the pain inflicted on the Iranian people? Or are they pleased that Iran stopped adhering to the deal and have resumed uranium enrichment? Or are they pleased about Iran's expanding influence in the Middle East? It doesn't take much to to give people wh…

That is on me. The example here was more intended to show that IAPAC got what it wanted out of Trump presidency.

You are correct to point out that people of Appallachia did not get anything of value out of that exchange.

Since that is the case, would you accept Keystone Pipeline ( https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/trump-administration-app... ), which was approved and, arguably, allowed for a lowering of energy cost across US?

I do disagree with that statement. This is the hardest thing in politics.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#486

Post by jq-r »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #445
jq-r wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's your point then? Of course stuff changes in 20 or 30 years. Everyone wanted to join the EU. They've joined, and for the last 20 years the elites are reaping the benefits. And that doesn't change the fact that there is a very strong anti EU sentiment among the Eastern European population. Did the EU screw them? They did not. Who did? Those same politicians now blaming EU for 30 years of their own corruption,…

Because these countries joined an organization with X agenda which now has Y agenda. This change (and demonization of anyone against it) is what gives politicians like Orban ammo. If the EU were more decentralized, none of these political parties would exist.

My whole point is that "EU-talk" is just a convenient scapegoat. It even doesn't matter if EU exists or not. Those crooks like Orban don't need a solid boogeyman, everything is good for them. Be it EU, "Communists", Jews, Roma, gays, trans, immigrants, dwarfs, Serbs, Croats, Albanians, hairy women or aliens, there is always someone else to blame for their own problems.

This is what fuels these guys. The tanking economy of their own doing which leaves citizens poorer and poorer. So they take away the money with one hand, and point to someone else with another.

EU has its own internal problems and huge overhead, and I agree it doesn't help the situation, but blaming EU for Orban's success is naive.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#487

Post by rsynnott »

bogomipz wrote: post #443
rsynnott wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, sure, but afterwards, the federal government wasn't able to impose its will particularly effectively. It's really hard to see reconstruction as anything but a failure.

I don't disagree however my posts were in context to the OP's assertion of "what would US of A do with a rogue Texas? nothing." And clearly the US did something. Also as disappointing as Reconstruction was it was in fact responsible for creation of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the U.S. Constitution aka the "the Reconstruction Amendments."[1] The important of which can not be overstated. Surely those should b…

Again, though, the 15th in particular just wasn't enforced for about a century in the states concerned. The civil war probably provided impetus to pass these very important amendments, and that, as you say, shouldn't be understated, but they weren't particularly effective in a reasonable timescale. Going back to the original point, more or less the entire south were rogue states to a much greater degree than Hungary, for a very long time.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#488

Post by pasabagi »

Bayart wrote: post #442
pasabagi wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> en masse in Eastern Europe Is Germany in Eastern Europe now?

A chunk of it certainly was, before the Germans got the boot. And the Nazi party was popular with a lot of factions in Eastern Europe, including in Hungary.

Western europe too, and in the USA. Vichy france, for example, is a pretty standout example, or Franco's spain, or Mussolini's italy, or some people in the UK (the daily mail, perhaps their readership?)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#489

Post by pasabagi »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #335
pasabagi wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> en masse in Eastern Europe Is Germany in Eastern Europe now?

If I remember correctly, the vast majority of the extermination camps were in occupied Poland (or Austria), rather than Germany itself.

Well, yeah, but if somebody said the Vietnamese had a history of using napalm, because it was mostly used there, people might look at them funny.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#490

Post by jfengel »

dfxm12 wrote: post #477
jfengel wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? I see a fair bit of attempts at understanding. Liberals love to write books like "The Righteous Mind" and "What's The Matter With Kansas?", attempting to understand conservatives from a liberal point of view. I can't think of anything comparable on the right. Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives, and it f…

Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives Huh? Do you have any examples of this? I think you might be generalizing too much what it means to be liberal and don't really understand who is or isn't progressive, even in the context of the US. It sounds like by liberals, you are referring to the Democratic party at large. You have to understand, the Democratic party at large is barely lib…

You're correct: I conflated liberals, progressives, and Democrats. There are definitely important distinctions, but I conflated them as all being roughly on the same side when it comes to politics and dealing with the opposition party.

As for "examples", take a look at those two books I mentioned. There are many more books, and many op-ed pieces every time Democrats lose elections.

It's only relatively recently that the more progressive wing of the party has said, "Hey, rather than try to bend over backwards to attract moderate conservatives, how about you garner more enthusiasm from your left wing?" Or at least, they've been saying it for a while, but were generally dismissed. I think 2016 made the proposition more thinkable: if they will vote for the Republican candidate even if he's obviously insane, maybe a new approach is needed.

Post reply on HN