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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#481

Post by kaba0 »

tekknik wrote: post #450
kaba0 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No it doesn't. The entire history of Western Liberalism—since the Magna Carta onwards—teaches us that censorship is quite literally never the answer. There is basically almost no precedent to todays problem of misinformation spread, so historical examples are near useless. Censorship is a trivial problem to overcome in the modern world contrary to the last century’s vision, one can’t really hide anything on the int…

> There is basically almost no precedent to todays problem of misinformation spread, so historical examples are near useless. I’m sorry but what?!? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation The only difference these days is everybody has a printing press. So what you’re advocating for is removing someone’s first amendment right.

Per your own link, the earliest use of this technique is ~1920, so bringing up the Magna Carta is not too generous. And it is naive to state that the only difference is everyone having a printing press — there are emergent qualities and we have only begun to discover what this new way of communication means on a global scale.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#482

Post by kaba0 »

tekknik wrote: post #446
kaba0 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People with history of allergic reactions are told to not take it Then they should not get the vaccine and be shielded by herd immunity. There are also several other illnesses which are not compatible with vaccinations but the number of those people are small. So healthy people should partake in the vaccination as for them, the risk-reward ratio is definitely worth it.

> So healthy people should partake in the vaccination as for them, the risk-reward ratio is definitely worth it. How can you make this decision for someone else?

Risk reward ratio is not a decision, it’s an objective measure. It’s a different question what and how can be forced on people, but the issue is clear: healthy people should get vaccinated.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#483

Post by topranks »

berkes wrote: post #475
derekp7 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the a large chunk of the population aren't scientist so they don't understand the principles of the scientific method. And they aren't software developers, they don't have the mindset for it. And have you seen the way many people drive? There is a reason why the term "defensive driving" was coined.

You don't need to be a scientist to acknowledge that knowledge evolves. You don't even need to follow a 'scientific method' for that. The ability to embrace uncertainty is hard to learn, but one that we all should strive for. One that should be praised and lauded. A politician, leader or CEO making a bad decision on a wrong premis, and publicly acknowledges the mistake (and learns from it), is now often end-of-career…

100% agree.

I think the inability to accept uncertainty in the world is, unfortunately, a big reason conspiracies thrive.

Too frightening to grok that a random virus can emerge and maybe kill us all or at least turn society upside down? There’s a conspiracy that makes it an easy “good guys vs. bad guys” story for you.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#484

Post by topranks »

xiphias2 wrote: post #468
avz wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] lots of people see what looks like the "story changing", and distrust anything coming out of their government, [...]. Changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in is a fundamental ability that underlies numerous activities from scientific research to debugging software to driving on a congested road network. Why is it a problem for public health officials to update and change policy as we learn more…

Public health officials knew perfectly that masks give some protection against viruses in general, it was already known 100 years ago. They lied so that the masks don't get bought up instead of just coordinating the distributions using govenmental channels.

No they were wrong about the virus’ ability to stay airborne.

They didn’t lie, they made a mistake. And when it became apparent they changed the advice.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu...

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#486

Post by topranks »

jader201 wrote: post #433
avz wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] lots of people see what looks like the "story changing", and distrust anything coming out of their government, [...]. Changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in is a fundamental ability that underlies numerous activities from scientific research to debugging software to driving on a congested road network. Why is it a problem for public health officials to update and change policy as we learn more…

By that logic, who’s to say “things won’t change” again, such that they find there is cause for concern after all? I’m not saying that’s what I believe, but if you’re admitting that we’re “changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in”, that also implies that we didn’t — and may still not — have all the data in front of us to make decisions.

Indeed but what should we do? Nothing???

We have to make the best decision for ourselves and the society around us based on the best knowledge we have. Yes science always allows for things to be disproven, but if we follow your logic we’d not use any medicines or treatments. Come on.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#487

Post by quenix »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #276
indolering wrote: post #131

I saw the headline and I thought, "Why do I care what Linus has to say about vaccines? He's just a programmer!" But then I clicked the link and realized that it was a classic Linus rant! As much as I support codes of conduct and Linus curtailing his asshole behavior regarding technical matters, I think there should be a loophole for anti-vaxxers and other nut jobs who don't care that they might transmit a deadly dise…

It's a bit disingenuous of you to state that anti-vax people "don't care". Have you actually engaged with any of them? They probably care a lot more than you and me about this stuff, they've just gone to the wrong conclusions. Also, you generally support Linus curtailing his asshole behavior, but you want to make an exception for anti-vax people? Why? You want them to burrow down harder into their anti-science bunker…

I don't think that the point is to convince the insane anti-vaxxer in the mailing list. They are too far gone.

Rather, it's to prevent further radicalisation.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#488

Post by pell »

Rochus wrote: post #340
H8crilA wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It had a bit more time to develop :) But, I don't think some software systems are far off, particularly if you are a bit more permissive with the boundaries of a "system". I don't know really how to compare such apples to oranges, but the genetic material of a human is just a single gigabyte. Now i know that a gigabyte C++ program is not on par with a gigabyte of DNA, but a terabyte of code? Maybe? We're definitely a…

> It had a bit more time to develop And it wasn't planned, but evolved. No plan, no developer. Hard to imagine. > the genetic material of a human is just a single gigabyte Indeed apples and oranges [*]. As long as we don't know all functions of this molecular machinery (and there is a very good chance we will never know all those functions) all comparisons with programming languages are pure speculations. Some "subsy…

>And it wasn't planned, but evolved. No plan, no developer. Hard to imagine.

Explains all those bugs and bad design choices, doesn't it.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#489

Post by rorykoehler »

ghoward wrote: post #479
rorykoehler wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heightened levels of CO2 are negligible in a mask. You aren't supposed to wear a mask 24/7. You wear a mask a strategic times like when you are inside, shopping or in a crowd. If you are outside away from people or crowds you don't need to wear a mask. Besides it's obvious that wearing a mask protects others. All you need to do is watch a video of a sneeze with and without a mask on to figure that out.

There's a lot of evidence that masks protect against bacteria, but the jury's still out for viruses. Also, you are correct that people should be strategic, but a lot of people aren't, and they are not changing their masks regularly as they should be.

I'm sorry but you're not making any sense defending your straw man. You're flip flopping your arguments so I can just recursively revert you to my initial answer.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#490

Post by Aachen »

tptacek wrote: post #264
freyr wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative here is ignoring the software engineer, and instead asking the crazy person on the corner who’s shouting at the sky and wearing his underwear on his head. Getting the perspective of the software engineer is a reasonable step, and certainly better than basing your beliefs on the rankings of the insane person.

No, I think the alternative here is asking vaccinologists.

I have some more questions (serious), can I have the number of one of these people?

Point being, it's not that straightforward unless there's someone you already know that is willing to share their contact information and they actually have the time to talk to you.

I totally see the point about going for second-best first until you know you have a question worth their time and not something that's obvious. (Although the answer in this case did seem obvious to me as a software person, or at least I'd have guessed they can see the amount of anti-covid-stuff dropping at different rates.)

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