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Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

rarehistoricalphotos.com

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Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#481

Post by dncornholio »

cies wrote: post #470
dncornholio wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of goodwill the US had from ending WWII is sadly running out. US felt invincible after it and tried to do the right thing. But did not actually manage to replicate to what they did in WWII. Backup these results with data is not the way to go. You have to proof the same results could have not been achieved without force. Which is impossible to proof IMO

> goodwill the US had from ending WWII is sadly running out. Sadly? It's about time. Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, most of Latin America, many places in Africa. They all have a US hangover. > US felt invincible after it and tried to do the right thing. Serious? What propaganda outlet do you read? They try to help their big biz make max profits. That's all. That's not "the right thing". Yeah sure they sell…

Thank you for saying things so directly. I was trying to give them at least some slack, maybe it's already time.. but I'm afraid my personality wont let me. It's like giving up hope

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#482

Post by altcognito »

cies wrote: post #474
shp0ngle wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well nowadays the government is much better and basically tolerable. Torture and death sentences are still present, but I would not say widespread, unlike in the hardest years of communism. There are political prisoners, but it’s not random and widespread. Coincidentally, Vietnamese communist government nowadays tries to be Best Friend with USA.

> Torture and death sentences are still present, but I would not say widespread Also in the US that you seem to defend...

My Vietnamese friends would explain to you: They are happy to have worked hard here, own restaurants, get degreees and raise children in a system that is largely fair and representative.

It does not lack problems but they would argue it is far fairer than communism.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#483

Post by opium_tea »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #403

> Viet Cong meet the enemy face-to-face, most likely in the Mekong Delta or Plain of Reeds. This rare image shows both sides in combat, ARVN soldiers at the top and Viet Cong in the foreground. The VC have flanked the enemy at left and right, which likely meant the ARVN unit was wiped out. This photo is a well known to be staged. Makes me doubt the authenticity of everything else.

I thought that looked pretty dubious. Do you know of anywhere to read up on it?

edit: some reddit discussion here https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/44gfpz/astonishing...

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#484

Post by dncornholio »

pembrook wrote: post #463
dncornholio wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of goodwill the US had from ending WWII is sadly running out. US felt invincible after it and tried to do the right thing. But did not actually manage to replicate to what they did in WWII. Backup these results with data is not the way to go. You have to proof the same results could have not been achieved without force. Which is impossible to proof IMO

Sure, it’s impossible to prove what would have happened otherwise (given the chaotic reflexive system). But an interesting thought experiment, imagine, after ending WWII the US and its people simply sunk into the ocean. Then you’ve got a massive imbalance of power tilted towards Stalin and the Soviets with nuclear weapons and allied with China, vs a weak UK and France. While it’s impossible to prove the USSR wouldn’t…

Same what if problem.. Of course the shift in power would change how we would life now, probably for the worse. That still doesn't justify anything.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#485

Post by SyzygistSix »

cies wrote: post #476
CamperBob2 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A controversial assertion. If there's a "wrong side" of history, there must also be a "right side." Who do you consider to occupy that position?

I'd say post WW2 Scandinavia+Iceland has been rather exemplar. Bhutan comes to mind too.

Apparently Bhutan has some nationalist fuckery going on, exiling "non-Bhutanese people" and declaring them non-citizens. Most people don't know because it is so small. If it were a larger country it would be a big deal.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#486

Post by pembrook »

geraneum wrote: post #478
pembrook wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the world is a chaotic reflexive system and trying to manipulate it always creates unintended consequences. The US absolutely does dumb stuff all the time, and power always gets abused. But for a contrarian view on the “US Bad” narrative, check out a book called The Accidental Superpower Here’s a good summary of the book: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-the-a... It presents an interesting…

I agree with you that a “US Bad” view which paints everything America as evil is misguided. But also the other extreme which portraits US as a savior and protector is also not true. From the book: > American disinterest in the world means that American security guarantees are unlikely to be honored. Competitions held in check for the better part of a century will return. Wars of opportunism will come back into fashio…

I also agree an equilibrium would be the ideal state.

But I just don’t think humans do equilibrium well. We seem to have a constant need to seek control or to be controlled.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#487

Post by SyzygistSix »

nosianu wrote: post #424
dash2 wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You failed to mention the times the US was on the right side of history. Most importantly, it defeated the USSR, which was, as Ronald Reagan correctly pointed out, an evil empire.

As a former East German, 90% of that "defeat" was done by the USSR (and the Eastern Bloc) itself, not the USA. Credit where it is due, since you insist.

That defeat could have been deferred a long time if it was free to gobble up countries and bring them into the communist sphere.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#488

Post by pyrale »

roenxi wrote: post #471
cies wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say: > There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. But then you conclude: > There was a lot of cruelty, bloodshed and lies. [...] The US could certainly have been much worse. So you do accept there's a gradient of right and wrong. > The US could certainly have been much worse. But also a lot better! > But there has not yet been anyone in history who avoided that while being large. What we've seen is next lev…

There is a gradient of right and wrong. Most (realistically all) successful countries are on the wrong side of it. I mean, look at the path the Europeans took to get to the modern era. Short periods of it, like the last 2000 years, have involved questionable acts.

I believe the point is that we have to acknowledge this rather than sugar-coat US history.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#489

Post by Glawen »

cies wrote: post #475
nabla9 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US involvement in Vietnam was based on complete misunderstanding. The US is not know for their cultural or historical intelligence to begin with, but McCarthyism had wiped out many China and Asia experts from the State Department. US misunderstood the history of Vietnam and the goals of the belligerents. Vietcong also misunderstood the US. Ho Chi Minh and Vietcong were nationalists first, communists second. US feared…

> complete misunderstanding So admit it, say sorry, pay reparations.

Say sorry, why not, but demanding to pay back I don't understand. It is not the same people in power nor the same population, why should they pay for their parents? It is preposterous. And where do you stop with this logic, neolithic?

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#490

Post by rad_gruchalski »

SyzygistSix wrote: post #487
nosianu wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former East German, 90% of that "defeat" was done by the USSR (and the Eastern Bloc) itself, not the USA. Credit where it is due, since you insist.

That defeat could have been deferred a long time if it was free to gobble up countries and bring them into the communist sphere.

The USSR collapsed from the inside.
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