Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

axios.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 1001 posts

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#481

Post by gonehome »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #458
gonehome wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up mainline Protestant too before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time (though weirdly not always - people are inconsistent). If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? Obviously religious people remain the vast m…

>If they can’t get something basic right, why would they be right about something more complicated? Can you steelman what the basic thing is that religious people get wrong?

A lot of the creationist arguments stem from "irreducible complexity" or a misunderstanding of natural selection (the "eye just formed itself somehow"). Both of these things sound reasonable when explained in isolation to someone who grew up with religion, but natural selection is much stronger (light sensing cells benefit survival way before they're an entire eye) etc.

It's the 'watchmaker' argument - things must have come from a creator because nothing can ever just exist. This always ignores the natural follow up - who created god then? There is no good answer for this (and it just creates an infinite regress).

Religious steelmans are weird, because the arguments out front are not the real objections or even the real debate (which makes things confusing). The real debate is more about belief in belief, tribal affiliation, perceived morality, and identity. The arguments out front are mostly rationalizations to try and explain away contrary evidence.

Religious people are arguing from a position entirely driven by motivated reasoning. They're not trying to uncover the truth, they're trying to defend what they already know to be true.

You see this occasionally on the atheist side too (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4Bwr6s9dofvqPWakn/science-as...) the difference though, is the evidence is there if you care to look.

If there was real compelling evidence of supernatural behavior I'd change my mind, but whenever it's been claimed and tested - it's bullshit.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#482

Post by jedberg »

thinkingemote wrote: post #91
nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

It's Holy Week this week (the week before Easter starts) and every day there is a service in each parish. UK, Roman Catholic churches. You have to book online to reserve a place. A quick look at a few parishes in an area for big and small churches shows that all the services for each day of the week and weekend are booked out in advance. Obviously the numbers able to fit in the churches are capped because of Coronavi…

You have to get tickets to get into Temple on the Jewish High Holy Days too. I know because I take my kids. It doesn't mean we are religious though. I just like to take them for the singing and to see the blowing of the ram's horn, fond memories I have from my own youth.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#483

Post by kongolongo »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

The reason fundamentalists are so appealing is because they at least try to maintain some level of consistency.

How does one know which parts of the bible to accept or which parts are metaphor and which parts are literal or which version of the bible to believe? At least the most literal interpretation always tries to be consistent.

What makes any interpretation better than scriptural literalism? Is it the fact that some happen to agree with current social trends? Seems like the source material is flawed and unnecessary in the first place.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#484

Post by dntrkv »

peterlk wrote: post #216
toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

> you don’t need fairy tails to be a good person and to come to terms with death I don't think this is true in general. I have a pet theory that much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church. People need spirituality - it doesn't matter where that spirituality comes from (except for local social pressures - but those aren't relevant to this point). If they're not getting spir…

> I have a pet theory that much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church

Except the vast majority of conspiracy theorists I know are devout Christians and the stats seem to tell a similar story.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-qanon-has-attracted...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#485

Post by phd514 »

freddybobs wrote: post #321
throwaway0b1 wrote: post #230

This may be a very bad idea. But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA. I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most church…

What's your take on the dead sea scrolls ? How do the aspects of the early church align with scriptural literalism? Specifically the split of the early church between Paul and Jesus brother James. James was Jesus's choice to lead the church in his absence. A direction which aligned more with Judaism - including circumcision, and kosher foods. Yet later Christianity revolves around Paul at odds vision. Paul was a Roma…

I'm not sure where you're getting some of these ideas. Paul was very much a Jew. He trained under Gamaliel, one of the most prominent Jewish rabbis of the time. He did also have Roman citizenship, but those two things were not mutually exclusive.

Also, James, while prominent in the early church, was not in any sense Jesus's choice to lead the church. The closest thing to a single designated leader of the church was Peter though that is a point of contention between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. Nowhere are circumcision or kosher foods required for Christianity, either.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#486

Post by eruci »

galangalalgol wrote: post #241
eruci wrote: post #21

Maybe people are leaving church because they have started asking questions. Not the kind of questions religion 'asks', which are answers in disguise.

The notion that people have suddenly become smarter or more objective or more rational has been blasted tume and time again, both by uncovering new past instances of rationality and by new blunders reminding us that it is our reason that evolved to serve our intincts, and thinking our reason is actually in charge is thus delusional. When people's physical needs are being met well, they become less religious. Look at…

Maybe.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#487

Post by randcraw »

nonotreally wrote: post #224
justaman wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes beyond fairy tails. There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age.

That's a lie that religions keep perpetuating. Many social groups exist that are just as fulfilling. My gym for example is full of people who actively work in the community, help each other and gather multiple times per week to better themselves and encourage their community. Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. It does offer a lot of downsides though.

Do you imagine that one of the social groups you belong to would willingly play the role in your life that church members often do? Would someone from one of your groups:

- drive you to a doctor appointment?

- repair your house when you can't (perhaps due to injury)?

- take you in for a few days after a crisis at home?

- prepare a week of meals for you, if needed?

These are fairly commonplace roles that I've seen filled routinely by members of a church that I've seldom seen arise from other social networks. And never from a health club.

I don't attend church but I've regularly seen this kind of extended community in others who do. The role churches play of an extended family is incomparable to any other social network I know. This degree of compassion and service to non-family members seems to require a greater common bond than just sweating together.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#488

Post by rayiner »

gonehome wrote: post #462
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? That line would only hold if fundamentalists have correctly identified the fundamentals. I wage they have badly missed it, which is why their theology is so bad. > being a good person or not is largely disconnected from religiousness Being a good person is not the primary point of religion. It is rather a hoped for outcome. Religio…

The thing that scares me about it is when people believe crazy things, they're more likely to believe other crazy things. This means even if most people most of the time are perfectly pleasant, they can get swept up in other stuff that gets out of hand and hurts people. If you can't persuade someone with evidence based reasoning because their position is based on 'faith' or belief in the face of contrary evidence I d…

> The thing that scares me about it is when people believe crazy things, they're more likely to believe other crazy things

I don’t think that’s true at all, and possibly the opposite is true. Comparing Bangladesh, where I’m from, to America, people here are a lot less religious. But I wouldn’t say the net amount of “crazy” believes is different. People in Bangladesh are a lot more down to earth and less likely to believe in faddish ideas that tend to fill the vacuum in the absence of religion.

American culture around eating and fitness, and particularly the “clean food” stuff is a good example of this. It’s for the most part completely unscientific, but fervently believed.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#489

Post by clairity »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

it also depends on the church and with time. the southern baptist church i went to when young didn't have much if any extreme fundamentalism. the one i attended for a bit as a teenager (not by choice) was a little more fundamentalist, but not extreme. i stopped going to church after that.

but really, teasing apart the strains doesn't matter in the long run. our gods are changing, just as they always have.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#490

Post by stephenr »

tyxodiwktis wrote: post #197
wussboy wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that there is no clear tradition of “cultural Christian” like there is for “atheist Jew”. I don’t believe in God. I love the high church and choral traditions. I attend a church where the minister feels the same. Am I a Christian? No. And yes.

This isn’t necessarily true outside the US. The running joke about Greeks is that they are 98% Greek Orthodox (official stats from a while ago) and 40% atheist. You might be atheist and communist (a fairly common combo in Greece) but will still probably roast a lamb on Easter with your family.

In Australia most historically “Christian” holidays are for the majority of people just time off to spend with family.

How or why they started or what the religious think of them now is irrelevant.

Post reply on HN