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The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

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481–490 of 495 posts

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your initial premise is flawed - that males and females form neat clusters with perfect Gaussian distributions, on any reasonable number of dimensions. Yes, on the axis for attraction to men, gay men are shifted towards the female group. On the majority of dimensions, males and female are probably hard to distinguish. On some dimensions, gay men may indeed cluster away from women.

You're overstating my premise. I was not saying very much, and you're implying I was saying a lot. Who said the clusters were neat? Or that characteristic distributions were Gaussian? "Women" and "Men" are words that we associate with observable characteristics. They are extremely messy, so much so that there isn't even one characteristic in all of the many dimensions that we would all agree evenly cleaves the "Men"…

You're right: you didn't make claims about the nature of the distribution, or that how neat those clusters would be. I did, with the hope that it clarifies the very narrow set of conditions in which your premise holds - which I don't think it really does. It was not my intent to put words in your mouth.

I do agree with the very narrow premise of your original claim:

> Isn’t “being attracted to males” a predominantly female characteristic in animals that reproduce sexually? On the “sexuality” dimension, do not gay men fall closer to the female cluster than the male cluster?

I don't, however, agree with your later claim:

> By default, let’s assume that homosexual men have the same distribution of all other traits as heterosexual men. In N-dimensional space, they are biased slightly away from dead center of the male cluster towards the female cluster because of the female bias of the attracted-to-men trait.

I would hold that this isn't true, because I would suggest that N here is extremely large, and in many of those dimensions, homosexual men are skewed away from women, even more so than heterosexual men. I do not know what those dimensions could be - perhaps something as esoteric as "Testosterone Levels", "Median Household Income", "Toxic Fathers", "Suicidal Ideation", "Substance Abuse", or "Gut Microbial Diversity". In some dimensions, homosexual men are probably hypermasculine. In N-dimensional space, humans as a whole are probably indistinguishable, let alone homosexual or heterosexual men.

I do not agree either with the claim:

> The point I was trying to make is that the only thing you can say about homosexual men without invoking stereotypes is that they are attracted to men. And in a statistical sense, that is a feminine characteristic.

[...]

> To restate: Male homosexuality can be described as a trait that male homosexuals share with women. If we assume the default about all other characteristics, i.e. that they are distributed in the same manner as they are in other males, then that would mean homosexual men are ever so slightly skewed female in distribution. That's it. Note that the "if" clause isn't a claim I am making, it is simply a proposition on which the argument is predicated. If it is false, the argument no longer stands. I am not making any judgement about that claim, I am only building on it in the hypothetical universe where it is true.

Yes, the only thing we can say about gay men with certainty that distinguishes them from straight men without invoking sterotypes is that they are attracted to men. It does not follow, however, that they are alike in every other way. On this singular dimension, yes, male homosexuals are shifted towards females. However, the original top level comment that we're responding to had used terminology suggesting gay men == effeminate men. Your initial premise is right, but only if we regard attraction as the defining characteristic and discard everything else. If we expand that definition to N-dimensional space as you did, then no, it's very likely not true, because of all the many ways in which gay men are probably shifted away from women.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve made valid points cogently, and asked relevant questions that could be answered using scientific methods, but you’re getting downvoted, which is a polemic response. Why?

It's cause I said it with vitriol. I also included vulgar language like ass-fucking and dick-sucking. These phrases likely made more squeamish readers who wanted to continue talking about "the homosexuals" in abstract uncomfortable for a reason they didn't quite understand. But I couldn't keep my anger in my throat. Saying a woman's body would want the boy to be more effeminate and therefore gay, is an idea made of s…

I didn't hear "vitriol". Your language was more jocular and incredulous than vitriolic or offensive. Those vernacular terms for sexual behaviour are neither here nor there in a site frequented by linguistic, semantic, and ontological virtuosos.

The comment you were replying to doesn't respect "the politeness of this place." It is base identity politics, or wantonly offensive ignorance, couched in some form of "acceptable" language which seeks to describe a logical chain of thought.

But the logic is jello nailed to the wall. It's not even sham science. It's a red neck fairy story. That's why I considered it an abuse of moderator privileges to downvote your comment.

Anybody concerned about the standard of discourse on HN should feel the same, or be able to defend the "logic" you were responding to cogently, which they can't because it is the rhetorical equivalent of a stream of shit from a horses asshole.

If I am to "assume good faith", which is always an advisable thing to do, the bizarre fairy story stream springs from ignorance of "the homosexuals", not malice. The downvoting of your comment is a different matter.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#483
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to 'nudge' the chances of a girl baby is to select the sperm based on which sex genes they carry. Any hormonal or such changes induced in the fetus down the line is too late to have any effect on genetic gender.

Today I learned that human sex is determined at sperm production! Didn't know that, thanks.

Also, the Y chromosome has slightly lower mass, and so the male sperm swim slightly faster.

I would suspect, though I haven't seen any studies, that some fertility treatment steps unintentionally have mass-sorting properties similar to the barrier diffusion Uranium enrichment technique used in the Manhattan Project.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/me blinks Liking Jane Austen is effeminate?

Go up to a group of supposedly all straight men and ask who is interested in watching the BBC production of Pride and Prejudice (ideally they will ask “which one?” and you can respond “the one with Colin Firth”). Then do the same thing with a group of women. Maybe you live somewhere unusual, but in my experience you will have no takers from the men but many takers from the women.

In my understanding "effeminate" means one's physical mannerisms, not one's taste

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#485
post #404
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can believe that homosexuality is at least partly environmental while also believing that people should have the freedom to be as gay as they want to be. I don't really like these appeals to motive; this is quite an interesting empirical question that's disconnected from discrimination. Even if it would turn out that homosexuality is a choice (I don't think it is, but let's assume it would be) then this wouldn't…

I'm a little confused, you seem to be using choice and environment like they are synonymous here. It's a small nitpick but, even if this is environmental or epigenetic it doesn't necessarily mean that people get to choose the environment they exist in, at least in their formative years.

Reading my post again, I probably could have chosen some better wording here and there. However, the point is that it doesn't matter if homosexuality is either environmental or a choice: the effects people having gay sex remains the same: people have gay sex with no negative consequences to anyone at all. Nothing more. And therefore they should have the freedom to have as much gay sex as they damn well please. Everything else is, quite frankly, just bullshit.

As I pointed out in my other comment[1], I definitely chose to have gay sex at some point and certainly could have chosen not to. I don't think it's so black/white.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26073364

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that heritability is a measure of a population, not an individual. So you're measuring the amount that genes vs environment contributes to a trait within that population . It's not an absolute number.

I mean, yeah? It's still fairly strong evidence against there being literally no genetic component to homosexuality, which I definitely saw a lot of in this thread. Unless I misunderstand your comment?

Not disagreeing with your original point, just adding that if you were controlling for environmental factors (everyone has equivalent environment), then you'd see more contribution to variance in phenotypes from genetics than environment. So for homosexuality, I'd bet the reason genetics don't contribute as much is because of the heterogeneous environmental conditions (just think about where you grow up and what religion you are for example).

Edit: a good example of this in action is handedness, because different societies historically have different advantages to using different hands

> Second, the samples used to estimate the handedness heritability were from different places, different years or different centuries and were not always representative of the general population. Heritability is not an intrinsic property of a trait: it varies with phenotypic and additive genetic variances and thus can vary across populations and across generations

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41437-019-0274-3

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#487
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> effeminate male > gay son This is a dangerous stereotype that is equally harmful to people of any sexuality, I'd encourage you to correct it. Most of the gay folk I know personally tend towards the athletic end of the spectrum

Is there some law of the internet that when someone corrects someone, they often commit the error they're pointing out? Did you mean to imply that effeminate -- showing characteristics more associated with females than males -- was at the other end of a spectrum from athletic?

>Did you mean to imply that effeminate -- showing characteristics more associated with females than males -- was at the other end of a spectrum from athletic?

Agreed, the terminology used by the parent comment was a bit strange, but I got the idea of what they meant.

They were talking about an effeminate skinny type of a male compared to a very masculine athletic "macho man"-looking type. In terms of celebrities and purely their appearances, think of young David Bowie vs. Arnold Swarzenegger.

I guess the parent comment simply conflated athleticism with masculinity, but that's just an aspect of it, and not all kinds of athleticism are inherently "masculine" (think yoga or acrobatics or figure skating).

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#488
post #433
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To me this sounds like the mother's body is trying to "nudge" the odds towards a daughter But if that were true, it must succeed sometimes. Evolution doesn't select for things that don't work. We should see an equally strong correlation with sex of offspring and birth order. We don't. One possibility is that the effect reduces the harmful effects of sibling rivalry by making second sons more empathetic. However, thi…

> possibility is that the effect reduces the harmful effects of sibling rivalry by making second sons more empathetic. Is there any reason to believe that gay men are more empathetic?

The question is not whether they are more empathetic overall, but whether they are more empathetic towards similarly aged men, and when considering that specific object of empathy, I would imagine there is a strong correlation.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#489
post #485
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused, you seem to be using choice and environment like they are synonymous here. It's a small nitpick but, even if this is environmental or epigenetic it doesn't necessarily mean that people get to choose the environment they exist in, at least in their formative years.

Reading my post again, I probably could have chosen some better wording here and there. However, the point is that it doesn't matter if homosexuality is either environmental or a choice: the effects people having gay sex remains the same: people have gay sex with no negative consequences to anyone at all. Nothing more. And therefore they should have the freedom to have as much gay sex as they damn well please. Everyt…

Of course! I should have mentioned that I absolutely agree with the thrust of your original comment :) I should have been less confrontational with my opening statement.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#490
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the pretty strong birth order effects in play when it comes to gay men[0], you could probably stop about a quarter of the gay male population from being born just by banning consecutive male births, assuming you were willing to enforce a comically evil level of control over the population. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male...

> Given the pretty strong birth order effects in play when it comes to gay men[0], you could probably stop about a quarter of the gay male population from being born just by banning consecutive male births, assuming you were willing to enforce a comically evil level of control over the population. A one-child policy with exceptions available if the first-born is a girl is a “comically evil level of control” that is h…

I'm not a huge fan of China's one-child policy, no, and I'd be even less of a fan if they'd done it with the intent to eradicate gay men.
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