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School or Prison

schoolprison.com

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Re: School or Prison

#481

Post by souprock »

luma wrote: post #457
souprock wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something got left off the list, unless "retribution" is supposed to cover it. When people see crimes go unpunished, they form lynch mobs. An unsatisfied angry population is a dangerous thing to have.

That's exactly what "retribution" covers, a sense that justice has been done for the victims and the community. Rehabilitation: should be obvious, nordic countries are well known for prioritizing this. Deterrence: again obvious, as noted elsewhere imprisonment has been found to be a poor deterrent in studies but the concept remains as a political argument in favor of harsher sentencing. Incapacitation: keeping the pu…

I often get the sense that people see retribution as inherently evil, barbaric, and unfit for civilization. That doesn't match up well with the prevention of lynch mobs. It's plainly evil and uncivilized to create conditions conducive to the formation of lynch mobs.

Re: School or Prison

#482

Post by qPM9l3XJrF »

dang wrote: post #476
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to be snarky, that is my unironic take. Our current prison system delivers a horrible punishment, but in a way people can pretend it's not occurring. It would be better to deliver a less horrible punishment and make it public so people know it is occurring. Not only would this be more humane, it also improves the deterrent value of punishment. With the current justice system, people can pretend like doi…

The issue wasn't snark. You broke the rule against flamebait, as well as this one: " Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " HN users need to follow all the rules, not just one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Alright, sorry

Re: School or Prison

#483

Post by lldbg »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #460
lldbg wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was indeed what I was referring to. Rather than interpreting your first paragraph as a pardon of Foucault, I consider it a condemnation of the group entire. If your (or their, the french intellectual elite's/literati's) philosophy is so morally vacuous that it fails to recognize the sexual exploitation of children and young teenagers as reprehensible, then it is worth less than nothing. It is an evil. Consent is…

> Power structures and actual power matters too Talking about power structures while criticizing Foucault is pretty rich.

I don't think so. A philosophy should be self-consistent, so if I can use Foucaults own words to critique his position on pedophilia, all the better.

Re: School or Prison

#484

Post by lldbg »

claudiawerner wrote: post #358
lldbg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault advocated for pedophilia, and that knowledge has tainted him for me. Can he still be a moral authority?

I suggest you read the interview he gave on the topic. Besides that, I'm not sure what makes you think Foucault is trying to be a moral authority in the first place. He was demeaned for most of his life on the basis of the moral prohibition on homosexuality. Why would he be sympathetic to moral systems? Not all criticism is moral criticism.

Well, certainly this case in particular is one of morals in so far as I understand the concept of morality. To me, sexual relations with children is immoral, it is not proper behaviour in which an adult should partake.

Foucault seemed to think it was, if not proper behaviour, then at least not-unproper. That is a moral judgement.

To suggest that Foucault was above the entire concept of morals as I understand you to do, well I can't agree on that and I don't think he would either. Of course he was trying to be a moral authority, remember that this whole thing was about him (and others) attempting to legalize sexual relations with children. If he did not think himself an authority, on what merit would he petition? And barring that, it is clear that he was and maybe is an authority, because here we are half a century later or so still discussing his position.

His experiences does not excuse him in my eyes. Neither does it impact to the slightest degree the truth-value of his position on this issue, nor of his philosophy overall.

Re: School or Prison

#485

Post by claudiawerner »

lldbg wrote: post #484
claudiawerner wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you read the interview he gave on the topic. Besides that, I'm not sure what makes you think Foucault is trying to be a moral authority in the first place. He was demeaned for most of his life on the basis of the moral prohibition on homosexuality. Why would he be sympathetic to moral systems? Not all criticism is moral criticism.

Well, certainly this case in particular is one of morals in so far as I understand the concept of morality. To me, sexual relations with children is immoral, it is not proper behaviour in which an adult should partake. Foucault seemed to think it was, if not proper behaviour, then at least not-unproper. That is a moral judgement. To suggest that Foucault was above the entire concept of morals as I understand you to d…

>To me, sexual relations with children is immoral, it is not proper behaviour in which an adult should partake.

It may be a moral issue, but there are pragmatic or non-moral reasons one may argue as Foucault did. You may find those reasons detestable and disgusting. That doesn't mean he was making any appeal to moral sentiment - he was just acting on what he finds beneficial or detrimental. Whether on behalf of sympathy for prisoners against the carceral state, or another reason.

>If he did not think himself an authority, on what merit would he petition?

He can do so not speaking on moral authority, but on a variety of authorities - the authority of a public intellectual, for instance. I don't think he was being a moral leader, or attempting to be. The people who would listen to him, the public at large, would not do so because of his moral position in their eyes. An authority as an enduring public intellectual with a strong grasp on philosophy and sociology within his tradition, for sure. A moral authority? Nobody has ever quoted Foucault in such a way.

His experiences would not excuse him (in your view; in mine, there is little to need an excuse if you examine his intentions), but they would provide a rational explanation for why he would forgo morality to expound his own opinions in pragmatic or non-moral reasons. He may have just not cared about morality (the same system that troubled him, I don't know) and reasoned on his feelings and pragmatism alone. I'm not trying to excuse him, I'm trying to explain him, though I'm really just speculating.

Re: School or Prison

#486

Post by Chris2048 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #363
throwaway998662 wrote: post #266

As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets. Watch some interviews of people who have actually been to prison. Murder and rape is common (I saw it happen), you will get your possessions stolen under the threat of murder/rape, you'll prob…

>As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Now why don't people apply this to everything else? You think HN knows what it's like to be a plumber('s apprentice), janitor, drive a floor buffer for min-wage, etc?

You think they don't? No working class backgrounds on HN?

Re: School or Prison

#487

Post by DreamScatter »

didibus wrote: post #186

Recently I thought about the educational structure and I wondered if we couldn't do way better. My idea was to make it much more like how paid for classes and work are. Instead of grades, there should be classes happening of various levels at all times. And student should be able to apply for promotions at any point, where if they pass the test, they can get promoted to the next level. Grades should be secret from on…

I've been proposing this kind of system to universities for years, but they are never going to change or improve, they are permanently crippled and unable to evolve.

Re: School or Prison

#488

Post by em-bee »

ineedasername wrote: post #442
em-bee wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

montessori designed a way of teaching, where each child learns at their own pace. missed time simply never causes a problem that way

That doesn't mean a student doesn't miss something when they're away from school. Self-paced just changes the timing. The dynamic is not comparable to a work environment where someone else might be able to do the work for you. No one can learn for your child when they are away, and that fact doesn't change with less rigidly structured Montessori schools.

it definetly does mean that they don't miss anything, because the students just resume where they left off without any pressure to speed up.

Re: School or Prison

#489

Post by em-bee »

ineedasername wrote: post #122
em-bee wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when i am sick at work, then i can take a few days off. (with or without pay). whatever work needs to get done, will be done by someone else, and i join back in without penalty when i am ready when my kids miss school, they have to catch up the work they missed. if they already struggle then they can't afford to get sick because they will fall to far behind and may not be able to catch up. so yes, school is forced la…

That doesn't make it a prison: neither another student nor the teacher can step in and learn the material for your child. I don't know what you think would be an appropriate option there. Also, you may have a job where none of your responsibilities are unique to you, but that's not often the case outside of some types of shift work. If I take a vacation or sick days, I have catching up to do. No one is going to step…

Also, you may have a job where none of your responsibilities are unique to you, but that's not often the case outside of some types of shift work.

in that environment how do you take a vacation? sure a planned downtime is easier than an unplanned one but the process is the same.

in a programming team other team members pick up tasks.

if my assistant is away, i may have to do some things myself.

if i am sick, my customers will just have to wait. if i set my deadlines to short, not giving any buffer time, it's my fault.

yes, there may be catch up type work, but usually i am not compelled to work overtime, which is how kids catch up time looks like.

they are forced to catch up on their own time, not in class and they are not given a choice.

Re: School or Prison

#490

Post by dash2 »

paganel wrote: post #171
dash2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the most delightfully overblown quotes of all time. But Herbert Marcuse went one better: he compared amusement parks to concentration camps.

I still have actual regular nightmares from my school-years, even though I've just reached 40 years of age. They started when I was 20-something, and they will probably never go away. What is more interesting is that during my school years I never looked at school as an institution as being repressive or "prison-like", looks like my unconscious/subconscious/whatever there is there inside was very good at repressing t…

I hated school too. But what caused your nightmares? For me, it was my peers, not oppressive teachers. Most modern high school movies seem to suggest the same thing. So perhaps we should fix the quote. Schools are like prisons - where the prisoners have taken over the institution.
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