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‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#481

Post by dragonwriter »

xenihn wrote: post #446
oh_sigh wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I fully understand your point, but it might be worth adjusting your language a little bit to account for a quirk of our language(in that Chinese could refer to the nationality, or the government): I assume your problem with Zoom is its association with the CCP , and not just that it is merely Chinese.

Conspiracy theory time: That's not a quirk with our language, there's a deliberate lack of distinction between the country and the people. During the Cold War, you could say "Soviet" instead of "Russian" to clearly demarcate between the nation and the nationality. We don't have a modern equivalent for the PRC, and that's because someone wants it that way. It'd be trivial for a new term to be pushed through media, but…

> During the Cold War, you could say "Soviet" instead of "Russian" to clearly demarcate between the nation and the nationality

That's not what that distinguished. It distinguished whether you were talking about things pertaining to the USSR and those specifically having to do with Russia; the same rough difference as between “American” and “Californian” (or, perhaps a better analogy would be “British” and “English”.)

> We don't have a modern equivalent for the PRC

Mostly because China didn't conquer a bunch of neighbors and create a name for the resulting state distinct from “China”, which remains as the name for the absolutely dominant component.

But, again, while the Soviet/Russian distinction did exist, it did not serve the purpose you describe, and we didn't have any linguistic distinction that did.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#482

Post by i-write-comment »

baryphonic wrote: post #469
i-write-comment wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a good example of an insidious trend that has existed throughout America's history, which tries to offload any agitation against racial discrimination onto white outsiders. In the past, race riots and protests were often blamed on Northern abolitionists, communists and Jews, basically "white agitators who aren't from here". You see this same trend today, when protests are blamed on Soros-paid white ag…

> It's intended to mollify any concerns of well-meaning whites that POC might actually really be upset with racial discrimination, and actually want significant change beyond superficial proposals. First, you have no idea of my intent, because I didn't tell you. Second, what you allege to be my intent is not my intent. Third, conceding for the sake of argument that you were right about my intent, why is it that the m…

Support for "defund the police", both the harsh slogan and the actual policy of reallocating some funding to social services, is dramatically higher among POC than whites so I don't think your analysis that "those who want radical change appear to be overwhelmingly white and particularly non-black" is correct.

https://morningconsult.com/2020/06/17/defund-the-police-comm...

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#483

Post by MetalGuru »

bArray wrote: post #448

I've spoken to multiple people employed at tech companies that believe they were 'token' hires, I can summarize their thoughts as thinking the situation was "awful". Biased hiring practices are in quite a few cases hurting the people they aim to help.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of diversity-driven hiring practices. Another is that applicants who would’ve gotten hired on their own merit are prejudged as diversity hires.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#484

Post by bra-ket »

enumjorge wrote: post #474
bra-ket wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if the legality is not questioned so what are we talking about? Public shaming? Making the world a better place via baseless accusations and media witch-hunt? Coinbase is pre-IPO, considering early 2021 public debut. This case stinks of extortion of settlement money via very well timed smear campaign.

Several black employees claim to have experienced racism at a noteworthy tech company. It’s been posted to HN for the same reason all the other stories, discussion. Do these employees need to ask you for permission before they can go to the press to talk about what they experienced? You complain about baseless accusations and then make a claim about this being extortion for settlement money.

If their rights have been violated why don't they go to court with all the available evidence?

Accusation of racial discrimination in a workplace is a serious deal, and it's not up to the media to decide who's right or wrong solely based on one side (disputed) claims. It's called defamation and they are legally liable.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#485

Post by throwawayriver »

sumedh wrote: post #359
dstola wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If people wish to leave it's their choice

> Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If an employee was sexually harassing female employees, should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?

The company should not babysit the employees, and should call the police.

Glad you agree.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#486

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

throwmylifawy wrote: post #214

Reading through the comments as black person is depressing. Many of the comments question whether the accusations are even true or collusive attack because of an unfounded accusation that black people tend to be SJWs (stereotyping). Others blame affirmative-action, bad schools, etc. (classic misdirection). Some even venture into the possibility that a black person complaining about being passed over for promotion mig…

I'm black too, and let's be honest here. The burden of proof that is being posed by folks on HN isn't because they are actually seeking proof, it's so that they can say

>"You don't have sufficient evidence, so we are going to go with whatever non-race based reason I can find as the cause"

Seeking evidence about an event is a worthy activity, but becomes a fools errand when the audience is sympathetic if not outright supportive of the wrongdoers.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#487

Post by joshuamorton »

treis wrote: post #213
ygjb wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're arguing against a straw man here. [...] There's nothing even like that. And you are arguing in bad faith; there are several parts of the article that detail exactly what you are looing for. In the second paragraph, the article indicates that 11 of the folks who left notified HR or their managers. In the third paragraph one of the named victims states she made several reports. In the sixth paragraph 5 on the…

>And you are arguing in bad faith; there are several parts of the article that detail exactly what you are looing for. Everything you list is an accusation. What I am looking for is: (1) Person X said this racist thing happened. (2) The event in (1) is (a) true, and (b) backed up by a corroborating witness, this email, some document, etc >You also have to look at the facts; Susan is an excellent writer, and based on…

So you're looking for a smoking gun level of proof? The unfortunate thing is that life usually isn't that easy. When smart people do bad things they generally don't leave a paper trail.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#488

Post by baryphonic »

tptacek wrote: post #365
aparsons wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem posed by “SJW” entities in a nutshell. Of course racism exists, and AAs have been one of the big targets for decades. But even considering another alternative explanation to something related to discrimination gets you on the list of racists/deserving-of-cancellation/etc. There is always room for debate, especially in a case like this where information is sparse. Forcibly shutting down anyone who…

Could you show me this list of racists you're referring to, with regards to this HN thread and the dangers of disputing the racism of Coinbase's management?

This is an odd sort of response. Shouldn't the people claiming that HN is chock full of racism be the ones enumerating exactly which users are engaging in racism and exactly what behaviors they're doing that promote racism? All I see are exceedingly vague accusations, most of which seem to operate from particularly uncharitable assumptions that equate any disagreement as another manifestation of racism.

Ironically, this is not dissimilar to how Zed Shaw treated you. We could either have just believed his accusation that you defamed him, or we could ask for evidence. (My interpretation is that you were making a sarcastic joke at Shaw's expense, mostly because of his extremely opinionated personality, and not making some sort of serious evaluation of his work. And, besides, literally speaking, what you said is probably true.)

If people want to argue that instances of racist behavior exist (at Coinbase, on HN or elsewhere within and outside the industry), few are going argue. The problem is that anecdotal instances do not imply systemic issues unless there is evidence of systemic issues themselves. When the most common response to "show me your evidence of systemic racism" is "you're a racist," then don't be surprised when some of us conclude that the issue is largely overhyped nonsense.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#489

Post by sumedh »

throwawayriver wrote: post #485
sumedh wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If an employee was sexually harassing female employees, should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?

The company should not babysit the employees, and should call the police. Glad you agree.

Why do you I think I agree with you?

So the company should just call the Police and wash their hands or be responsible and have an appropriate sexual harassment policy, train their employees on how to identify and deal with sexual harassment, have a clear procedure on how to file and deal with complaints.

Maybe you will call such things "babysitting", I say its being responsible.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#490

Post by predictmktegirl »

cbthrow91 wrote: post #55
chandra381 wrote: post #6

> One Black employee said her manager suggested in front of colleagues that she was dealing drugs and carrying a gun, trading on racist stereotypes. Another said a co-worker at a recruiting meeting broadly described Black employees as less capable. Still another said managers spoke down to her and her Black colleagues, adding that they were passed over for promotions in favor of less experienced white employees. The…

I find this hard to imagine without someone getting reprimanded. Not disbelieving the person's quote, but not accepting it as fact either. Seems like it would be easy to get corroborating witnesses for a situation that inappropriate. The only group I've seen it be permissible to make stereotyped observations about in the last decade in an SF tech office is european/indian/chinese workers. FWIW I don't think that's ok…

People treat you with contempt and ridicule if you complain about being unfairly treated. They hide behind objective processes that give cover to be biased. If process A, B, and C are objective, A+B+C can still yield terrible, biased outcomes. Witnesses and data simply doesn’t matter without empathy and understanding.
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