Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993 • Hacker News Board

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#481

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:16 AM UTC

jldugger wrote: post #325

bonoboTP wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the cost of American college doesn't go towards education but things like sports stadiums and teams, various non-academic events, administrators, various other non-academic staff, uniquely-expensive American legal costs and insurance, on-campus police (a big wtf for Europeans), and then there are also those people who decide which Halloween costumes are appropriate for students, investigate various misconduc…

> Americans expect college campuses to be like resorts You say that but the typical dorm room offers no privacy or air conditioning, and the showers and bathrooms are shared. They're similar in nature to SROs which the US pretty much abolished anywhere else, but way more expensive. And then universities have the audacity to demand that students live in them freshman year, even though living off campus would be cheape…

True, but I enjoyed living in the dorms very much. I was never bored :-)

I moved off campus into an apartment my senior year, thinking it would be cool, but regretted it.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#482

Post by jillesvangurp » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:24 AM UTC

georgeecollins wrote: post #127

Dannymetconan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. It does have it's problems but it is not one or the other. You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one. Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across…

Nonsense, there are a lot of universities in Europe to choose from that have been around for centuries with excellent reputations that also publish world class research, rake in nobel prices, attract foreign students & researchers, etc.

US universities tend to be better at marketing because their core business is separating their students from their cash and making them feel good about that. That does not automatically translate into a better academic performance. There are a lot of second and third rate institutions that are perhaps better at their marketing than actual academic performance. Arguably the smart move for a US school kid would be to opt for the life experience, language skills and education at a university abroad instead of opting into a mortage to get an education from some local college.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#483

Post by UrsaMedius » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:29 AM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #185

Hokusai wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cost is low for the student but it's pretty high for the taxpayers. That is a supposition that proves to be false. The same happens for health care. To have a centralized state sponsored education or health care system allows it to be more efficient that smaller for profit institutions that have incentives to increase cost to the students as their profit depends on that. Also, I would like to notice, that for E…

> Also, I would like to notice, that for European tax-payers it is an investment. That money spend in education brings back way more money that what the original cost was. So, to just talk about "cost" misses the point. How do they know this is the case at the margin? The analyses I've seen of this is usually [benefits of education] = [# of college grads] * ([avg. college grad salary] -[avg highschool grad salary]) W…

The Swedish report "Education and Economic Development - What does empirical research show about casual inter-relationships?" https://www.regeringen.se/rapporter/2005/12/ess-20054/ asks a similar question and starts its conclusions as follows:

"Our results are potentially contradictory. On the one hand, we have shown that the best studies which used variations in education between countries and regions – here we consider recent studies to be more reliable – indicate that there are no strong external effects from education. On the other hand, we have pointed out that there is strong evidence that education leads to improved health and life expectancy, politically more active citizens, lower crime and possibly that the children of educated persons become more productive. One explanation for these seemingly contradictory results may be that the favourable effects of education are not sufficiently strong to have an impact on economic development. It is also possible that the traditional measure of GDP is too narrow (and perhaps insufficiently stable) to capture the favourable effects."

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#484

Post by fiblye » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:31 AM UTC

ridaj wrote: post #452

7thaccount wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. There are a lot of pointless liberal arts classes for a STEM degree in the US. For example, my engineering degree required 3 English classes, psychology, fine arts, and sociology. These were all incredibly easy and I found the course material was what I was used to as a freshman in highschool (no I'm not exaggerating). So those classes weren't even remedial, but felt like a joke. Please note that I'm no…

> There are a lot of pointless liberal arts classes for a STEM degree in the US. I understand, this was my outlook when I left school too, but I changed my mind about that. It took me maybe 5 years of work experience before I realized that no matter how "technically" smart I was, my technical skills were worth shit if I couldn't communicate better with my teammates. My writing was poor, I couldn't explain myself conc…

I think he means there are classes that really are pointless. They're basically adult babysitting.

I found quite a few interesting history/culture/etc classes and enrolled in them. They had no prerequisites, but offered engaging material. A week in I notice... these classes don't fulfill my general education requirements--only the most fundamental, non-challenging classes do.

So I switch from classes with 15-20 students that would've involved long discussions, some research, and actual thinking, into lectures of 150 students and only 3 multiple choice tests in the entire semester.

I went to every class. Never was I challenged. They were very much "here are facts. Memorize these for the tests" classes and nothing more. Very surface level stuff. Not even any questions from the professor, and oftentimes if students asked questions, the professors would tell them to ask later because they're short on time. Just a waste of time and money.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#485

Post by tdeck » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:38 AM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #477

lotsofpulp wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they force the students living in them to purchase meal plans which cost 3x what a restaurant meal would cost for defrosted food from Aramark/Sodexo. Obviously someone is getting paid.

Last time I ran the numbers at my alma mater, the mandatory meal plans were (in most circumstances) more expensive than paying cash for the same meals at the same dining halls. There were a few low-end restaurants on campus too (sandwiches, wraps, pizza, burgers, etc) that were both better and far cheaper than the dining halls. Their defining characteristic was that you couldn't spend your dining dollars there.

Same at my alma mater. One point is worth $1 at the dining hall. You can top up points for $1/1, but you're required to buy a plan of at least 1,200 points that costs $1,800.

https://diningservices.wustl.edu/meal-plans/undergraduate/

I always tried to explain to people that they should get the smallest plan but some didn't get it.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#486

Post by Kbelicius » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:45 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #221

Hokusai wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cost is low for the student but it's pretty high for the taxpayers. That is a supposition that proves to be false. The same happens for health care. To have a centralized state sponsored education or health care system allows it to be more efficient that smaller for profit institutions that have incentives to increase cost to the students as their profit depends on that. Also, I would like to notice, that for E…

> To have a centralized state sponsored education or health care system allows it to be more efficient that smaller for profit institutions that have incentives to increase cost to the students as their profit depends on that. There is a major flaw in this argument: mixing incentive with potential. Yes, governments have the potential to be more efficient due to scale, but there is no incentive to do it. Smaller for p…

This would be a valid argument if the only incentive for human action was money. Since we know that to be false makes your argument invalid.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#487

Post by hansvm » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:52 AM UTC

narag wrote: post #381

jldugger wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans expect college campuses to be like resorts You say that but the typical dorm room offers no privacy or air conditioning, and the showers and bathrooms are shared. They're similar in nature to SROs which the US pretty much abolished anywhere else, but way more expensive. And then universities have the audacity to demand that students live in them freshman year, even though living off campus would be cheape…

...demand that students live in them freshman year What? I've been watching movies and series made in USA for decades and didn't know that. I assumed that students living there was a way to save money or the parents wanted it. I had no idea it was required. If it's in the same city, can students just keep living with their parents?

> If it's in the same city, can students just keep living with their parents?

It's a pretty easy requirement to get out of if you know to expect it and are able to plan a bit. Parents in the same city are one option. If you already have a lease, that often suffices. I tested out of a few generals so that I wasn't technically a freshman when I started. Etc. There are loopholes for a lot of situations.

> I assumed that students living there was a way to save money or the parents wanted it. I had no idea it was required.

It shocked me at first too. I've talked to a lot of people trying to get a sense of the other side's perspective, and a large number of parents feel that the "college experience" is so beneficial that they don't feel anyone should be able to make the in-all-cases worse decision to live off campus..... It's a tiny bit similar to the mindset behind worker protections -- some deals are so bad that workers ought not to be able to make them in any circumstances. I don't agree in the slightest that students should be _forced_ to stay in a dorm and whatnot, but people who aren't me feel the opposite pretty strongly.

IMO a lot of oddities in the US university system can be explained (please bear with me) by assuming students are viewed by the larger system not as adults consciously making an investment but as children who need to be cautiously guided into the real world. You don't get to choose to live off campus because you aren't an adult and need to be protected from making the wrong choice. You need to make friends in the dorms because otherwise you won't be socialized for the real world. Teachers assign points for homework because it will give you an incentive to do it (because you're not an adult yet and can't make the right decisions without additional incentives). It's even solidified a bit in our laws and tax code -- financial aid must be available because college is an important part of transitioning into the workforce, and any available aid explicitly assumes you have an amicable relationship with your parents and that they will pay as much as they're able to help you through the last stage of your childhood.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#488

Post by whiddershins » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:12 AM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

I would invite you to examine the non-dischargeable debt claim before propagating it.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#489

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:29 AM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

European universities actually profit from letting the government meddle, and most of us do have much more opportunities for attending universities than the average American, from the available information.

In some countries it still is free (or has a symbolic price), go figure!

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#490

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:32 AM UTC

fatnoah wrote: post #2

Is this surprising to anyone? Colleges battle each other to provide amenities, loans are easy to come by, and the colleges have nothing to lose when the students default. I remember my first day of college (in 1993!) and remember part of registering was signing all of these forms where my options were a) take out loans and go to school or b) don't take out loans and don't go to school. I had no idea what it meant to…

[deleted]