Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#481

Post by Macha » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

donarb wrote: post #47

Bud wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Google, Microsoft, and Sony are also hostile and tone-deaf, then? One assumes so. All those platforms extract the same kinds of fees from Epic that Apple does. But mysteriously, Epic only wants to go after Apple.

Epic is suing Google as well, but not Sony or Microsoft. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368363/epic-google-fort...

They managed to break Steam's grasp over PC gaming (at least enough to get their own games and some exclusives), they're trying for mobile now by taking on Google and Apple, it's hard to think the next step won't be to stick it to the console manufacturers if they have succeed

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#482

Post by grishka » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #431

grishka wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let them install that malware and have their data stolen despite all warnings because they deserve it? We can't have safety nets everywhere, and we, in fact, don't. We allow everyone to drive, use knives and handle all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff every day, but for some reason can't trust them with their own phones. Some mistakes are costly, but people learn from them. Such is life.

>We allow everyone to drive, use knives and handle all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff every day, but for some reason can't trust them with their own phones. Can you get social engineered into crashing a car or stabbing yourself? The difference here is that people most likely know the consequences of their actions, unlike with phones/computers where the consequences are nebulous.

> unlike with phones/computers where the consequences are nebulous.

So maybe they need to be educated on that? Or just, in general, to think critically at all times?

> Can you get social engineered into crashing a car or stabbing yourself?

There were cases of people "social engineered" into wearing bomb belts and blowing themselves up. It's just that this social engineering was much more sophisticated than telling someone to send bitcoin to have it doubled.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#483

Post by munificent » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

This feels like watching the tech business equivalent to the run-up to WWI. All these giants tangled up in contracts and economic leverage, bristling to carve each other up.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#484

Post by damnyou » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

misnome wrote: post #310

ProAm wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they were not kicked from the app store for doing so.

Come on, I don't think anyone is pretending that this wasn't a deliberate provocation by Epic

Suffering a harm is how one gets standing to sue.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#485

Post by heavyset_go » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

> What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software.

When I brought up that Notarization was going to be used to gatekeep (literally with Gatekeeper[1]) access to the macOS platform, I was assured it would only be used for security and never for evil.

Apple only made Notarization mandatory this February, too, so that didn't take long at all.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatekeeper_(macOS)

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#486

Post by ngngngng » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #369

rabidrat wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Stallman founded the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for this very reason. You might think it's ridiculous but the fight for the right to modify the software running on devices you own has been raging for 35 years and is bigger than ever.

It hasn’t been a quarter in which i haven’t told myself how richard stallman was right, and a visionary, and how much we were fools to consider him an extremist.

Sometimes he's off his rocker, but a lot of the time he's right. We can have both.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#487

Post by baddox » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #399

baddox wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how someone could argue that Apple's App Store rules are anticompetitve and that they should be forced to change them, while also arguing that the same doesn't apply to Tesla's media computer(s). Is it just because there are more iPhones than Teslas?

FWIW I personally don't. However, I see the argument to be made that in selling a Mac or an iPhone, you're being sold a general-purpose computing device with explicit value added by third-party software vendors. Also, on macOS, you were sold the explicit ability to run whatever software you want. It's purpose is to run software from third-parties. When you bought a Tesla, that wasn't how the car was represented to yo…

> Also, on macOS, you were sold the explicit ability to run whatever software you want. It's purpose is to run software from third-parties.

I agree with that, and I think there would be a much stronger argument if Apple changed MacOS to remove this ability when it is a very well-established ability of the Mac platform. Of course, Apple almost certainly will not remove this ability, not because they want to be nice or they want to dodge antitrust allegations, but because they know that doing so would lose them customers.

But with iPhone, my argument is that this is absolutely not the expectation fostered by Apple's marketing or held by the vast majority of iPhone owners. Apple has always been very proud of its App Store and its (supposedly) strict vetting process to protect iPhone owners from malware, privacy violations, and other junk. Now, I personally think Apple should be much more restrictive about what apps it allows in the store, because there is a vast wasteland of abandoned apps and junk apps. If anything, the iPhone seems to have gotten less and less restrictive over time (the first iPhone didn't even support any third-party software, after all). I have a lot of trouble buying the argument that any significant number of iPhone owners expected to be able to run any third-party software they want to.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#488

Post by YarickR2 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #408

gruez wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That advice might be feasible for the average HN reader, but what about the average person? How resistant do you think they will be against a social engineering attack telling them to disable code signing?

So let them install that malware and have their data stolen despite all warnings because they deserve it? We can't have safety nets everywhere, and we, in fact, don't. We allow everyone to drive, use knives and handle all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff every day, but for some reason can't trust them with their own phones. Some mistakes are costly, but people learn from them. Such is life.

I support you wholeheartedly, survival of the fittest and evolution show us it's the only way to ensure getting better as species, but current point of view (equal opportunities, maximum protection) all but guarantees those who scream louder survive, not those whos skills are more useful in a long run .

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#489

Post by fermienrico » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #471

fermienrico wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, when it comes to keeping things secure, I honestly trust Apple more than myself (I've forgotten to lock my car upteen number of times) and my family. I am not saying that Apple is not prone to hacks, gov influence, but based on their past record, their stance on privacy - who else could be more trust worthy? Can you provide examples of whom you would trust more if you owned an iPhone to manage your phone?

It's not comparable to locking your car, unless you're in the habit of re-writing your phone's operating system every few days.

Right now, if I was running some open source OS on an open source hardware, with random 3rd party unverified apps, etc. - I would have no confidence in myself to keep that thing secure.

I agree that things like openssh can be more secure because there is a huge number of individuals and corporations using it, there are a lot of eyes on it. It is open source and secure.

That's not the same as something as big as an iPhone. iPhone is an ecosystem of apps, cloud data, biometrics, hardware encryption (secure enclave), etc. and finally the physical device.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#490

Post by nwienert » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

erulabs wrote: post #304

nwienert wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is because there are only two stores in our example, it really does make sense. Imagine there were only Walmart and Costco and literally nothing else, even small business. Now someone violates Walmart’s rules for a specific item in the store, and they not only ban that item, but also ban every item they sell. Here’s where it gets dystopian. In all platforms that allow competitive stores, the fees settle way…

There is some irony here though, no? For example, if Apple is the only market-place in the country, and rules keep it open and free and available, then there is no need for a 2nd market-place: we've forced Apples to be how we want. If Apple was allowed to make stupid mistakes like making it very hard to develop Unreal Engine games for iOS, or being jerks in general, then there would be much more justification for bui…

I'm not really following the logic here, what rules are keeping it open? Apple is allowed to make stupid mistakes, there is an alternative market, just only one, and, it's clear no force is keeping Apple from doing exactly what it wants currently.