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The Day AppGet Died

keivan.io

481–490 of 566 posts

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is when MS decides they aren't going to hire, they cut off all communication, total lot drop. Sometimes at their own campus, no feedback at all. It's really an angering experience imo. I mean, I get it from a litigious mindset, but still not very humane.

That's not true, usually you'll get a message from the recruiter. You might not get interview feedback, but you'll know if you got turned down. Even if you don't, you submit applications through a recruiting site, and it tells you the current status of your application. It'll tell you if the application was rejected.

Replying to myself, because the sibling comment is clearly at odds with what I'm saying, and I think that deserves to be addressed with more nuance than my first comment did.

I think there's a lot of variation in the quality of your interview experience when you interview at Microsoft based on how on top of things the recruiter is, how much the hiring manager prioritizes candidate experience, and headcount/budget complexities. Some teams don't have recruiters, so then the candidate experience is whatever the hiring manager makes time for.

I don't doubt the horror stories. For context, several years ago I applied for three different roles. I got rejected at the resume screen for one of them, rejected after the first phone interview for another, and I ended up taking an offer from the third. For both rejections, I got the news by email notification through Microsoft's careers app, not from the recruiter or from the hiring manager. I think it's a really impersonal way to find out after you've already done an interview round.

The specific point I was making is that, contrary to the parent comment but not the sibling comment, there is a standard way of doing things that ends with following up with the candidate. And, as a candidate, you do have explicit ways of figuring out what happened to your application, even if finding out you failed an interview via an app is kind of shitty. It's definitely not standard to ghost the candidate.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#482
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find MS seems quite immune to terrible publicity in the recent years. "But it's not the same company as before! They are doing open-source now!" yada yada

They are not immune. As someone who has been supportive of Microsoft getting their act together, and who recently spoke at a Microsoft-sponsored conference, this stuff makes me hesitant to give any Microsoft-owned properties money and discourages me from trying new Microsoft products.

But you saw everything they had done before you got back on board, and you still got back on board. What's different this time?

I'm not even saying you shouldn't like MS, or whatever. But what about this specific incident forms a line in the sand, that all the stuff they did through the 90s-2000s didn't?

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes. The new Microsoft, same as the old Microsoft. I am really sorry this happened to you. On the scale of Microsoft, or even on the scale of what they're putting into this effort, it would have cost approximately nothing to give you an "acquisition" you would have been happy with. If the job didn't work out, they could have given you a fat consulting contract for a year or two. Or they just could have written you…

Reducing this down to a Microsoft thing is a bit hasty. Apple has done it. IBM has done it. And, when I was working for a less well-known company, I once burned a whole lot of social capital trying to prevent it from happening. At least in that instance, there was never anything overtly malicious happening. It was just your garden variety "banality of evil" situation. The existing corporate decision-making structures…

Are many companies terrible? Sure. Is that an accident? No.

However, Microsoft specifically has a history of being aggressively terrible in exactly this way, which is what I was referring to. For example, the time they talked with a company about an acquisition only to ghost them and totally steal their work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics#Microsoft_law...

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#484
post #80

Author here, Because it's sure to come up here is a comment I wrote on Reddit that clarifies somethings, I haven't updated the original article since I'm not sure what the etiquette for updating a highly shared article is. ------ Code being copied isn't an issue. I knew full well what it meant to release something opensource and I don't regret it one bit. What was copied with no credit is the foundation of the projec…

Did you link the wrong article? The one you linked basically says that (1) you are using yaml files to describe the package instead of scripts and (2) you have the ability to specify multiple installers per package to support multiple architectures.

If that's all the innovation that MSFT has supposedly 'copied'...

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#485
post #80

Author here, Because it's sure to come up here is a comment I wrote on Reddit that clarifies somethings, I haven't updated the original article since I'm not sure what the etiquette for updating a highly shared article is. ------ Code being copied isn't an issue. I knew full well what it meant to release something opensource and I don't regret it one bit. What was copied with no credit is the foundation of the projec…

I flew to Seattle on December 5th to have a full day of interviews/meetings at Microsoft HQ. I met with four different people; three of the meetings were more like your typical interviews; the meeting with Andrew was more about what we should do once this is all over and how we would migrate AppGet’s process and infrastructure to be able to handle Microsoft’s scale. We talked about some of our options, but in general…

> this situation often means "you didn't pass the interview."

To my mind, it also means the interviewers didn't pass.

A company that's indifferent to the people it's hiring is unlikely to be magically different once you're in the door.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really what “banality of evil” means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

Indeed. Perhaps Hanlon's Razor is a better parallel for this particular situation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor I've also heard it expressed as "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence". Although in this case I'm not sure organisational incompetence is necessarily a good enough explanation given there are ex-Microsofters in the discussion suggesting that people w…

When "organizational incompetence" consistently yields the same result, it's not an accident. As the systems thinkers say, the Purpose Of the System Is What It Does (POSIWID). It's the same way wily teens are incredibly bad at things they never wanted to do in the first place.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#488
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the fact that there are five times as many Android devices as Windows devices, and the greater ease of use of Termux compared to WSL. I find that highly unlikely. Anecdotally every newbie programmer I've seen try to use WSL has just ended up installing Linux in frustration.

Termux is a terminal emulator, WSL is a subsystem. Did you try [0]? And WSL2? It's pretty compelling, I predict they will pull in a lot of Apple (who use it for the terminal) devs and make a lot of Windows first devs very happy. And there are a lot. Btw, am I downvoted because my original comment in not constructive or do people not agree with me? [0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/windows-terminal/9n0dx20hk...

By the way, every terminal application you're used to (Terminal.app on macOS, iTerm, the Windows Terminal, Ubuntu's Terminal application) is a terminal emulator. I've tried WSL1 and 2 and couldn't get past the typing latency, awful font rendering, incredibly slow downloads, apt/dpkg bugs, and not syncing with the actual filesystem like Linux/macOS do. For example, I like to copy my dotfiles to ~/Dropbox/dotfiles. This isn't possible on Windows, and if you force it to do so it will corrupt the files.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#489
post #80

Author here, Because it's sure to come up here is a comment I wrote on Reddit that clarifies somethings, I haven't updated the original article since I'm not sure what the etiquette for updating a highly shared article is. ------ Code being copied isn't an issue. I knew full well what it meant to release something opensource and I don't regret it one bit. What was copied with no credit is the foundation of the projec…

As author of an open source tool that was already steatlh-forked twice without any contact whatsoever by VC-backed startups - including clearly copying text from my website/FAQ - without giving any sort of credit on the idea/implementation they used for 80% of their product but on the contrary claiming how revolutionary their products are and best idea since sliced bread, and even not satisfying the basic MIT license terms, I can completely understand your frustration.

At least they were nice enough to pay you a trip to Seattle and (briefly) mentioned your project in the release announcement, I didn't even get a "thank you".

As a result of this I re-licensed my code from MIT to OSL-3 and reduced my involvement in this project a lot so I focus on the things that actually matter in life: my wellbeing and spending the time with my family.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not claiming that his approach was "completely novel". He's claiming microsoft identified his way, that already existed, was the way they wanted to go, toyed with bringing him in to run it and then got overwhelmed by internal Not Invented Here / We Can Do It Better and threw him under the bus. It's literally the new cuddly microsoft Embracing, Extending and Extinguishing this guy's work.

What new cuddly Microsoft? When did they grow fur? Did people honesty believe that some messaging and branding choices would outweigh the influence of institutional inertia, for such a large company?

They've been shoving "Microsoft loves Linux" in everyone's face everywhere they can. It's like they read this tweet and didn't realize it was satire: https://twitter.com/shutupmikeginn/status/403359911481839617
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