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Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

kodfabrik.com

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Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#481

I’m sorry that you had that experience. Maybe enough up votes will get Google’s attention.

There’s only one developer advocate on the Chrome extension team; hopefully they see this! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23198629

Instead of coming on here and addressing the issue, he tweeted this instead:

Thanks for the tag. Looks like the author's core issue is (understandably) with the construction of the system itself. I'm not sure what I can do here other than listen and reiterate that we are trying to work to address these issues.

- https://twitter.com/DotProto/status/1264331488029376513

A month ago he said:

For context, we're currently planning to create a team that will respond to escalations with more meaningful information about a rejection.

- https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/chromium-exte...

But the situation only appears to be getting worse and no one at Google appears to care enough to do anything about it.

I have an extension that is once again in rejection form mail purgatory and it makes me want to take my extensions off of the Google Chrome Web Store as well.

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a first, and second, and third approximation, bureaucracies are distributed computing systems; procedures, laws and bylaws are code, bureaucrats are the computing units. A lot of "fat" in bureaucracy comes with dealing with the fact that the computing units are buggy, unreliable, and sometimes actively malicious.

And so the next step would be to actually throw out the written word and replace it with actual code. I'm serious. Why let "government code" be subject to all the shortcomings and pitfalls of natural language when you could just use cold hard logic and exact math instead? Natural language is just programming for humans, anyways.

That would be a very wrong move. I'm serious.

This unreliability that comes from agency of the individual compute nodes has some very important benefits: the system is much more resistant to bugs in code[0], and much more humane. Software, as it is today, doesn't understand morality. That's e.g. you wouldn't want to automate away judges in the justice system - the law is code, but it's buggy, and isn't complete enough to handle all cases in all contexts. You need case-by-case judgements, and that's why it's good to have human bureaucrats who can independently think and override the system as needed. Otherwise, the system would just grind people that fell into it.

--

[0] - Like, "you have to deliver document X before 14th to get something done, but the document is only available from 23rd". Happened to me during university, where some scolarship depended on a government document that you could procure only well after deadline. Of course, the secretary at the university knew this and let you fill in incomplete application; she'd wait for the whole allowed processing time, then send you a letter asking you to bring in missing documents and giving you 14 extra days. Given that this was a bug at an intersection of two bureaucratic systems, if this was software, it would likely go undetected for a while, until someone started to wonder why nobody is applying for scolarships anymore.

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most societies actually have something to solve such disputes: courts of law . The real tragedy is that we decided to let corporations grow so big that they can say "fuck you" to courts and people alike with no repercussions. Twitter is famous for this, ever tried to appeal a ban?

I fear this is overstatement...people don't have a recognised right to an appeal if their app is shutdown. Only if the agreements were written in such a way as to define such a right, would a court of law even be involved. This isn't about companies being too big, it's about an absence of rule making. If there were some rules defining the rights, then the courts could, indeed, be involved; but courts can't be brought…

> people don't have a recognised right to an appeal if their app is shutdown.

In Germany, people and political parties have obtained court judgements to unlock their Twitter and FB accounts. Generally the principle behind these decisions was that Twitter and FB are a public venue for discourse and therefore it goes against free speech to ban accounts for acceptable speech.

The only downside is that it are mostly hardcore actual Nazis which obtain these rulings, e.g. from the NPD party: https://www.belltower.news/gerichtsstreit-facebook-muss-seit...

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#484

Maybe they're still angry with him about leftpad. Yes, it really is the same guy: https://kodfabrik.com/journal/i-ve-just-liberated-my-modules . And, joking aside it would be wise to bear in mind that we're reading only one side of the story here. As with leftpad, there's another side to this. With leftpad he told Kik, "fuck you" ( https://medium.com/@mproberts/a-discussion-about-the-breakin... ), and then wrought gl…

This comment is just straight ad-hominem.

Not true at all. I'm saying we don't know the whole story. That's not to say that what he's saying is untrue but that, without some corroboration, or hearing from the other party (Google), it can't be relied upon.

Granted, all I know of the author is based on what I've seen of his past behaviour. That does make me a little sceptical that his account of events represents the sum totality of truth around the situation. I don't believe that's an unreasonable perspective.

It does not mean the account is false, or that I lack sympathy for him[1], or that I'm unwilling to see or understand his point of view. What I was concerned by is that in the comments I was seeing nothing but unalloyed support, which I did not think was warranted based on what we know. I think I've been pretty clear about that.

I also think it's a shame that he's chosen to yank the extension, but that's obviously his choice and I can understand why he made it.

[1] Different context entirely but I've had my own issues with Google's algorithms, along with the sense of being left in the dark about why. I made some, actually useful, changes but I've still no idea if those are the reason the issues were resolved. Regardless, I'm glad that they have been resolved.

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#485

Maybe they're still angry with him about leftpad. Yes, it really is the same guy: https://kodfabrik.com/journal/i-ve-just-liberated-my-modules . And, joking aside it would be wise to bear in mind that we're reading only one side of the story here. As with leftpad, there's another side to this. With leftpad he told Kik, "fuck you" ( https://medium.com/@mproberts/a-discussion-about-the-breakin... ), and then wrought gl…

To me it sounds like both sides had their own (though different) tone-deafness. "Oh I didn't know there was a company with that name" well, now you know. How would you like to go into NPM and find someone has created a package with your or your company's name? At the same time Kik's answer of "we're nice people but we're sending the lawyers" does not come across as friendly. And yes, NPMs response is not surprising.…

> Note to npm (or some future package repo site): create package namespaces. Allow renaming and maybe aliases.

I have a friend who encountered a similar scenario with a company claiming trademark on a name. In their case they simply changed the package name. It was frustrating but it meant everybody was able to move on without any drama. Subsequently, as far as I'm aware, the trademark holder has never even published a package under the original name. So I suppose that makes it doubly irritating, but such is life.

I think your suggestion would have neatly avoided a lot of these kinds of issues in the first place.

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#486
post #345

Wish I had known about this product. This seems like a really awesome bookmarking service -- better than most I've seen. :( This is also so terribly common. I had a Twitter account get suspended for 2 months...with no explanation. I appealed it but it still took 2 months. What if that had been my main source of revenue? They restored the account without much explanation. We really need _real_ people to make decisions…

> What if that had been my main source of revenue? I'm not saying that people who did are in the wrong, but yeah, don't do that. Likewise, it is very risky to have Youtube as a unique source of revenue, etc. Or even to diversify but across the same platform company/holding... You should not take such critical dependencies even if they had real people doing proper reviews, because they can very well change their terms…

Oh, I agree! There are so many YT creators now that discuss how their videos are demonetized and how it's fucking them over but they're okay because of Patreon support.

Same with me. If I lost my Twitter account, I could rebuild it -- my _actual_ following at the time had more to do with my blog and RSS (miss those days :( ); however, it shows that you can't really trust that an account is yours or that as long as you follow rules, you get to keep using the site. Or that you'll get a "fair trial" when you're accused of breaking rules.

It doesn't help that these companies also punish you for getting accused when they _do_ have manual review. One of my photos on FB got mistakenly flagged, reviewed and approved that it's fine, and I still had a 7-day ban from posting/commenting. Youtube has that 3 strikes rule or whatever where if you get accused 3 times or more of copyright infringement (even if false and retracted), you lose monetization.

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dealing with Google these days seems a lot like dealing with an authoritarian government. It's more like dealing with a blind automaton, and that's becoming more common outside of Google, too. Automation support scales well because the fixed costs are high but the marginal cost is low, human attention scales poorly, with a high marginal cost.

To a first approximation authoritarian bureaucracies are blind automatons too.

I don't think that's really true. Authoritarian regimes are, if anything, more prone to personal foibles of individual decision-makers than others.

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#488

I get it, Google loves to automate stuff to save money. Makes sense, I agree. But I'm seriously wondering if all the people in charge of automating such processes are those delusional ego-programmers who think they can solve anything with machine learning, aka "AI". Really, I cannot understand that there aren't basic safeguards in place like "hey this extension got repeatedly flagged and when a human finally reviewed…

I think you'll find the people in charge of automation have no programming background at all. They're likely new grad product managers hopped up on Adderall with no incentive to reflect on the unintended consequences of their decisions

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a first approximation authoritarian bureaucracies are blind automatons too.

To a first, and second, and third approximation, bureaucracies are distributed computing systems; procedures, laws and bylaws are code, bureaucrats are the computing units. A lot of "fat" in bureaucracy comes with dealing with the fact that the computing units are buggy, unreliable, and sometimes actively malicious.

> To a first, and second, and third approximation, bureaucracies are distributed computing systems; procedures, laws and bylaws are code, bureaucrats are the computing units.

Having spent a fair amount of time working in various bureaucracies, and studying law and government administration, that's very much not true. It's very much the idealized view that many people outside of bureaucracies have of them, especially people in computing, but it's very much not a good approximation of most real bureaucracies, or their governing law and regulation, because the latter usually is written in a way which deliberately relies heavily on discretion within (often deliberately fuzzy) constraints rather than seeking to provide deterministic rules for outcomes, and in many systems regulation is actually written by the bureaucrats enforcing it (who also tend to have disproportionate influence on shaping the actual law).

Re: Unable to deal with Chrome Extension Team, Kozmos is shutting down

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a first, and second, and third approximation, bureaucracies are distributed computing systems; procedures, laws and bylaws are code, bureaucrats are the computing units. A lot of "fat" in bureaucracy comes with dealing with the fact that the computing units are buggy, unreliable, and sometimes actively malicious.

And so the next step would be to actually throw out the written word and replace it with actual code. I'm serious. Why let "government code" be subject to all the shortcomings and pitfalls of natural language when you could just use cold hard logic and exact math instead? Natural language is just programming for humans, anyways.

> And so the next step would be to actually throw out the written word and replace it with actual code.

That is, indeed, that natural conclusion of the deeply flawed premise that law and regulation are basically computer code written by programmers who have to contend with buggy, sometimes malicious, computing units.

But other than the fact that the word “code” is often used in reference to each, law/regulation and computer code are not the same kind of thing.

> Why let "government code" be subject to all the shortcomings and pitfalls of natural language when you could just use cold hard logic and exact math instead?

The fuzziness in law and regulation is very rarely anything close to minimum required because you are dealing with natural language, and very often deliberate to create room for flexible application. And there is a strong overlap between the places that that is least true and widely perceived gross injustices in the law.

> Natural language is just programming for humans, anyways.

No, it's not.

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