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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> : in Germany the outside limit on abortions is 12 weeks—shorter than in any US state. (Excepting a few “heartbeat law” states where the laws have not yet taken effect.) But within that period, abortions are generally available. No such compromise is possible in Americ You seem to forget that in France & Germany, people go to the Netherlands or Spain for abortions after 12 weeks. It’s not a « compromise », it’s just…

For the American audience: the limits are 12 weeks in France, 14 weeks in Spain, and 24 weeks in the Netherlands. For the European audience: the shortest abortion period that is currently in effect in the US is Mississippi’s at 20 weeks: https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/922-3.jpg . Shorter ones have been proposed but have been stayed pending litigation. Most of the deep south is close to the Netherlands…

In practice, regardless of what that law says, you can't get an abortion in the deep south. There are fewer licensed clinics than there are letters 'i' in Mississippi.

Despite what you've listed, there are other laws on the books that make operating one nearly impossible - they can't be located within a mile of a school, they need to have admission powers at a hospital, etc, etc.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#482
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to show up in front of the US Congress to protest. Thankfully if there's one thing the US knows how to do, it's for people to protest wherever they find standing room, and still get their attention. I'm not sure about you but I vividly recall this happening during Occupy Wall Street. People protested (even overnight) in all sorts of settings around the country that had no obvious relevance to Washingto…

Funny how you ask why Americans aren't protesting to get their government to serve their needs instead of the elites, and use the OWS as an example. OWS protests resulted in zero legislation. Zero.

Yes, it's very funny isn't it? OWS wasn't about an emergency, it was about a long-term chronic problem with no obvious immediate solution everybody could agree on. OWS also wasn't in the middle of a pandemic demanding something Congress had already, practically unanimously done in a heartbeat. So funny that it didn't result in any legislation.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. You say that as if the 50 States' legislatures have been wiped out by covid-19 and can't convene (or be convened, as the case may be) and pass laws. In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the us…

Everything about the comment above is totally incorrect when it comes to the law in the US. Just to give you a taste of how wrong this is: the case isn't even about an executive order by a governor! It's about the rulemaking of the Secretary of the Department of Health Services. Not only is the parent wrong, the opinion actually goes out of it's way in the first paragraph to say this! "This case is not about Governor…

> > In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the usual mechanisms.

> This isn't true for many reasons including: the federal government controls a lot of what happens in the country indirectly and executive orders can decide what the law means (even if that meaning goes against what the law intended). Executive orders can for example suspend immigration. That absolutely affects civilians in an extremely practical way. More fundamentally, this kind of statement totally ignores how the legal system in the US works practically. Yes, there are laws, but laws are vague and must be interpreted. The federal government makes rules that interpret laws. These rules are what the law "is" practically. There is wide disagreement about what rules a particular law allows or doesn't allow. Executive orders can and do change these rules.

The President most definitely cannot promulgate Executive Orders that have the force of law without supporting statutory law from Congress. There is no argument about this in U.S. constitutional jurisprudence.

Presidential power is highest in military and foreign policy, and at its lowest in domestic policy. Immigration falls into foreign policy. Also, there's two plus centuries of statutes that delegate some Congressional powers to the Executive, such as tariff powers.

> > Also, the U.S. Constitution's requirement that State governments be (small-r) republican

> There is no such requirement. This was also not about federal constitutional law, it was about the constitution of Wisconsin.

This was addressed by other commenters.

> > This was a decision by a court, not a question of whether the people support their governments

> Only in the narrowest sense. It was a decision by a party, not a court. Republicans put their judges in power and the Republican judges made a decision. In that sense the US is absolutely unlike any other democracy in the world.

That is an outrageous take. The justices in question are elected, not nominated. (IIRC there's a nomination-then-election system in Wisconsin.)

The U.S. is a republic, which means it has stringent procedural rules. Some aspects of American governance are very democratic, some are less, and some are practically not -- that's how it was setup in 1787-1789, and all of that has remained essentially unchanged since then. None of this is new.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legislatures have not been wiped out by covid-19. Elections are still being held too. If the legislatures wish to pass laws requiring various establishments to close down, they can pass them, and if Governors wish to have such laws on the books, they can request them of their respective legislatures. Similarly for the Federal government: Congress is still sitting, and they call their own sessions -- it can pass w…

But is it really democracy in action if a small-r Republicans holds the governor hostage?

What are you talking about. The constitutional system we have is that legislatures are Sovereigns and Executives are Heads of State. I don't care if the Wisconsin legislature is led by one party or another -- it has powers and prerogatives that it has to be jealous of. The governor is not being held hostage, rather, the legislature has to be consulted and may not be ignored.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can find a bunch of articles summarizing the West Coast as a cesspool of heroin, homelessness, and opioid use as well. https://www.city-journal.org/opiods-homelessness-west-coast https://calmatters.org/explainers/californias-homelessness-c... https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-12-26/... Maybe California is a cesspool too? https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/as-opioid-ep... Or maybe Se…

Yeah, but people still want to live there vs. Youngstown or Cleveland

People still want to live in those locations, evidenced by the fact that there are still people living there and getting along ok. Maybe you're a doctor and want to work at one of the two best hospitals on the planet, then you'd move to Cleveland, for example. Maybe you want to go to the #1 CS program on the planet, so you go to CMU.

And who knows. Maybe now with more companies going remote or encouraging more remote work, fewer people will feel compelled to move to the Bay Area or whatever.

Anyway. My point isn't to get into "x is better than y" because, frankly, it's not that interesting. But combating stereotypes about locations and geographies or peoples is of interest. Calling the Rust Belt area a cesspool, is pretty pathetic, especially when despite all the nice weather California has its own "cesspool" problems to deal with. If you just spend a lot of time reading coast newspapers it's easy to magnify problems in other areas. In fact, why is it that leading population centers like New York, D.C., and S.F. were able to spend so much energy destroying and outsourcing manufacturing at the expense of their fellow Americans? Why did regulators and politicians in D.C., along with our medical establishment and pharmaceutical companies allow so many opioids to be prescribed?

If you're going to destroy the coal industry because of regulation (which I support) why aren't you also advocating for finding meaningful employment for those who are regulated out of a job? Maybe they should move to SF and learn to code? Well, now they might get their chance, and Twitter et al. may be paying them $60,000 year to do tech jobs that were $200,000/year in NYC or SF or Seattle.

The U.S. really needs to get its shit together and start caring about one another. I've never in my life thought that one part of the country was a cesspool or worthy of ridicule, even if I disagreed with politics there.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> struck down that law Not true, no laws were struck down. They simply overturned Emergency Order 28. DHS can even reissue the order, they just need to submit it to the appropriate legislative committee for approval. At the heart of the lawsuit was a state law governing communicable diseases that says the Department of Health Services "may close schools and forbid public gatherings in schools, churches, and other pla…

Ok, they rewrote the law. The law [1] says "The department may promulgate and enforce rules or issue orders" but the court just said that they cannot issue orders, they can only promulgate rules. [1] https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/252/02

The Court did not rewrite or invalidate 252.02. The Court held that the order in this case was a "rule" which means that "the rulemaking procedures of 227.24 were required to be followed". There's nothing about that statement that precludes an order like Emergency Order 28 from coming into force provided that its promulgation follows those rulemaking procedures. There is no rewrite. 252.02 does not exist in a vacuum -- the Court simply recognizes that other parts of Wisconsin statutory code also apply.

We can debate whether the Court was right, but not whether its position is a reasonable one. Clearly, deciding that statutory rulemaking procedures apply is a reasonable position. Clearly, also, deciding that they don't apply might well also be reasonable.

| We conclude that Emergency Order 28 is a rule under the controlling precedent of this court, Citizens for Sensible Zoning, Inc. v. DNR, 90 Wis.2d 804, 280 N.W.2d 702 (1979), and therefore is subject to statutory emergency rulemaking procedures established by the Legislature. Emergency Order 28 is a general order of general application within the meaning of Wis. Stat. §227.01(13), which defines "Rule." Accordingly, the rulemaking procedures of Wis. Stat. §227.24 were required to be followed during the promulgation of Order 28.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#487
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

because economic aid on this scale is unsustainable anyways, if the current shutdown continues. The government can't just keep on printing money.

I don't believe they've financed these by printing money so far, though please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism "Extreme partisanship" is more evident in your complaint about a "striking down" that didn't happen of a "law" that doesn't exist . The Court upheld existing law and struck down executive actions that violated it. By the way, Supreme Court justices here in Wisconsin are elected on statewide ballots, not nominated for…

Wisconsin Statue 252.02 does exist.

The Court does not deny or rewrite that. It simply asserts that 227.24 also applies. Seems reasonable to me, since "227.24 does exist".

> We conclude that Emergency Order 28 is a rule under the controlling precedent of this court, Citizens for Sensible Zoning, Inc. v. DNR, 90 Wis.2d 804, 280 N.W.2d 702 (1979), and therefore is subject to statutory emergency rulemaking procedures established by the Legislature. Emergency Order 28 is a general order of general application within the meaning of Wis. Stat. §227.01(13), which defines "Rule." Accordingly, the rulemaking procedures of Wis. Stat. §227.24 were required to be followed during the promulgation of Order 28.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#489
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a Presidential election in six months. That means there is a major element of politics in everything that happens between now and then. The incumbent candidate wants to reopen. Because the election is near, it's especially important for the other side to portray whatever he does as wrong and incompetent and life-threatening. So you then have a major political apparatus pushing the argument that reopening is…

> The incumbent candidate wants to reopen. Because the election is near, it's especially important for the other side to portray whatever he does as wrong and incompetent and life-threatening. So you then have a major political apparatus pushing the argument that reopening is dangerous and publicizing any instance of any authority saying anything negative about it. They don't benefit from a nuanced or moderate positi…

> This same debate is happening in every country in the world, including ones that don't have an election in six months.

They get CNN in more than 200 countries.

> It's a very clear consequence of what the two parties value.

So it's normal for the Democrats to be the conservative party banging the "save American lives at all costs" drum and the Republicans to be the ones worried about blue collar workers and people living paycheck to paycheck, is that it?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#490
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But New York has over 1400 COVID deaths per million [1]. New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachussets are all more than double of Sweden's deaths per million, and still climbing steadily. The US only looks good next to Sweden because there are big areas of the country that are way more spread out. [1] https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=states...

fair point, but doesn't this imply that the spread out areas don't need such severe lockdowns?

I think each area can and should take the local situation into account. My understanding (as an American living in the UK) was that they are doing so, to a large extent. From what I can tell from friends and relatives on FB, restrictions in Michigan came on hard and strong after being probably one of the worst hit early on; restrictions in Ohio started earlier and never got as tough. The anti-lockdown side of my FB feed seems to think that South Dakota never had much of a lockdown to speak of at all.

I don't claim to know better than local governments what the best decision is -- we're all just making this up as we go along, and I'm glad I don't personally have to make the decision between massive death or economic damage for millions of people.

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