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Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

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Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had an apartment offer power at the parking lot. I couldn't buy a non-hybrid EV until a solid majority of them install that (either metered or on an indoor switch if I have an assigned space). Street parking is a harder problem.

I just moved out of an apartment building that did have chargers, but they had like two in a garage for hundreds of cars. They didn't seem to have plans to provide one for everyone .

I don't get this. If I can't rely on having a charger every day, I have to plan on being able to get home without one, and then why have it?

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is there are more anecdotes than useful information. Apologies for getting a small bit of angry there. It's one of those cases where I've had a lot of different people pop up in my "mentions" with variations of the same anecdotes, and there's that imbalance in that even if it is the fiftieth time I've responded to the same anecdote, it can still be that person's first time thinking about it. If you really…

"Chargers are something new and unique and need to be giant gas-station like things" Well, nobody is comparing a charger to a gas station . More like a gas pump . And I don't understand your tone of "oh, electricity is everywhere, you can basically get it for free". It costs what it costs. When almost nobody has an electric car, public chargers can be installed and subsidized as a gimmick. At some point, if people ac…

It's not like it's a gas pump at all though. A gas pump spends a lot of energy to move liquid from a reservoir. An electric charger is "merely" a plug or an outlet to an electric circuit. Existing outlets work just fine! We've made these shiny free standing things with crazy cables and fun new connectors that sometimes connect to more exotic circuits with higher voltages (though that's not guaranteed, I've seen Level 1 chargers in the fancy charger form factor that may as well just be a wall plug).

Yeah, electricity has a cost, but when was the last time you checked your utility rates? Electricity itself is stupid cheap, it's a commodity, as it should be. Depending on city and time of day, you are talking dimes per kilowatt-hour. When was the last time you were asked to pay 45 cents for the energy you used to charge your phone in a café, restaurant, or at an airport?

For mostly one-off, random charges at places you are only at for a couple of hours, existing parking costs can and should cover it.

Sure, you do that every day for a month and those cents add up to dollars, and that's why a lot of the chargers are more like clubs where you pay monthly dues. Which is a business model that almost works as intended, except to really work well it should just be part of your monthly utility bill with your electric company with no extra middle men in the way.

But right now the vast majority of public chargers, at least in the US, are costing a whole lot more than the raw electricity prices. They've got tons of service fees they cost to pay for their "subsidized" installation costs. It is a bit of a racket, and should be better regulated.

Which is also why it's a psychological game they are playing right now to make you think that you need expensive chargers everywhere, because it is marketing that makes them (outrageous amounts of) money. The wall outlet at your home is good enough. A wall outlet from your employer would be good enough. An electrician can install an extra outlet on a circuit for sometimes dozens of dollars (after the basic service charges of making an appointment), and if you are more the DIY sort you can pick up most of what you need in a Lowe's or Home Depot and watch a YouTube video or three. You probably don't need to invest thousands of dollars into a gas pump looking charger. If you want to worry about the cost of electricity you are adding to the electric bill of whatever building it is you don't even have to install an extra meter, just do the math, round up a bit and pay that. While you are doing the math, maybe do the math on everybody's cell phone charging while they are in the building?

Yes, there's going to be a need/use case for superchargers at Level 3+, especially for long distance travel, but all the public chargers in the middle (Level 1 and Level 2) that are fancier than just a boring old wall outlet are in many ways a psychological game that charging is more of a service and less of a commoditized utility than it actually is. Electricity doesn't magically get 5000% more expensive because it's coming out of a machine made up to look like a gas pump with lightning bolts painted on the side and a fancy cable with a silly looking connector.

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, electric motors have flat torque curves, while ICEs need to get up to a certain RPM before you start getting decent torque. That means you get maximum acceleration and hauling power from the get-go. https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how-do-electric-vehicles-pr... (This incidentally is part of why Tesla started with the Roadster - the flat torque curve of an electric motor can give some great acceleration numbers…

Gah. I agree that electric vehicles are cool, but there is no need for parroting "facts" about ICEs that were true in the 1970s. If you look at the torque curve of a modern pickup truck engine, it's either completely flat or it's actually decreasing as you go from low to high RPMs. E.g. the GM Duramax 6.6 maxes out at 1200 Nm at 1600 RPM, then decreases to 900 as you go higher in revs. For comparison, the Model X P10…

The difference between a Tesla and an rs200 accelerating like that is the Tesla does it with zero drama. An rs200 Is not a daily driver.

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gah. I agree that electric vehicles are cool, but there is no need for parroting "facts" about ICEs that were true in the 1970s. If you look at the torque curve of a modern pickup truck engine, it's either completely flat or it's actually decreasing as you go from low to high RPMs. E.g. the GM Duramax 6.6 maxes out at 1200 Nm at 1600 RPM, then decreases to 900 as you go higher in revs. For comparison, the Model X P10…

> Nurburgring Where Tesla just put down a 7:13 > torque curve What's the Duramax's torque at 0 RPM?

Tesla did a 7:23 in a heavily modified testing vehicle that has big extra air intakes for cooling, racing slicks, a massive rear diffuser, bigger spoiler, and is believed to have 3 engines.

For comparison, a front-wheel-drive stock Renault Megane RS does 7:40. Mercedes did 7:25 in a stock 4-door coupe last year, the AMG GT 63S. The stock supercars are down below the 7:00 mark mostly.

In the non-stock category, the record is 5:19 by one of Porsche's modified LMP1 cars.

If you look up how a stall speed converter works, you'll see that an automatic transmission delivers torque at a non-zero engine RPM even if the wheels are at zero RPM. The lowest you will go on the Duramax is around 1000 RPM, where you get 600 Nm torque.

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#485
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the Model S my first thought was the M4, which actually does end up with the original 1/3 weight disparity I mentioned, but I think this is just a coincidence of my first choice. Compared to an E63 AMG, a car in a similar category known for carrying a bit of weight, and the difference is closer to 10%. Compared to an RS4 the difference is about 20%. For the Model X I was really surprised how small the differences…

Come now, that's not even close. That's comparing a BMW M4 2 door coup with a rear seat (rated for 4 adults) with a fullsize 5 door sedan (rated for 5 adults). The model S has around 3 times the cargo space (30 ft^3 s "8 to 11" ft^2 on the BMW). A 5 series is much closer, 5 adults, 18 ft^3 cargo space, and even leads by a bit on passenger space (98 ft^3 vs 94 ft^3). The model S is AWD only, so to be fair lets add tha…

All your points are valid, with one caveat. The Model 3 Performance really is targeted at people that want the "fun" car, so I think it's appropriate to compare it to other sports cars. But that said - there is obviously a huge benefit going towards the Tesla in having more utility due to its size.

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chargers are something new and unique and need to be giant gas-station like things" Well, nobody is comparing a charger to a gas station . More like a gas pump . And I don't understand your tone of "oh, electricity is everywhere, you can basically get it for free". It costs what it costs. When almost nobody has an electric car, public chargers can be installed and subsidized as a gimmick. At some point, if people ac…

It's not like it's a gas pump at all though. A gas pump spends a lot of energy to move liquid from a reservoir. An electric charger is "merely" a plug or an outlet to an electric circuit. Existing outlets work just fine! We've made these shiny free standing things with crazy cables and fun new connectors that sometimes connect to more exotic circuits with higher voltages (though that's not guaranteed, I've seen Level…

"Electricity itself is stupid cheap"

Yeah, yeah...the DC fast chargers though? I saw where somebody said they were charged like $10 for enough electricity to drive less than 20 miles. I don't know if that is really representative, but what feels right to you or anybody in terms of price is even less meaningful than one random data point.

Gas stations can sell gas for minimal cost usually due to having a convenience store with high margins attached. You can charge at home due to having a connection to the grid, a house, and wiring, all of which cost substantial money beyond the per-kwh charge. So regardless of what charging "really" costs, your reasons for why it should be essentially free seem obviously flawed to me.

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like it's a gas pump at all though. A gas pump spends a lot of energy to move liquid from a reservoir. An electric charger is "merely" a plug or an outlet to an electric circuit. Existing outlets work just fine! We've made these shiny free standing things with crazy cables and fun new connectors that sometimes connect to more exotic circuits with higher voltages (though that's not guaranteed, I've seen Level…

"Electricity itself is stupid cheap" Yeah, yeah...the DC fast chargers though? I saw where somebody said they were charged like $10 for enough electricity to drive less than 20 miles. I don't know if that is really representative, but what feels right to you or anybody in terms of price is even less meaningful than one random data point. Gas stations can sell gas for minimal cost usually due to having a convenience s…

I'm not saying that it should be "essentially free", I'm saying there is far less competition than there should be, competition should be easy and a lot more prevalent, and part of that is the very hurdle that people think we need to install electric chargers like gas pumps in the gas pump business model only as big installations of just fast chargers, because right now we aren't doing that well either. To be doing the gas pump business model well: Yes, a lot more fast chargers should be working with convenience stores and restaurants and what have you and should be value added to higher margin industries.

The "parking meter" business model is also a valid strategy. My complaint with that business model, if its not apparent enough yet, is not that they are charging more for that business model, but that they aren't being transparent about it and double and triple dipping. If you want to charge $5-$15/hour parking, that's fine, that's a parking fee. Don't call it "electricity fees", because that's not what that is. Also, don't charge me $5-15/hour parking at both the Gate and the Meter (Charger), because that's $10-$30/hour parking and your signs are wrong.

But the further point is that those aren't the only business models. You don't need fast chargers everywhere, because cars spend most of their lives parked and the electric grid is everywhere, if we could just drive enough business models that encourage "slow" chargers everywhere we "win" when it comes to competition. Utilities make great amenities to bundle with other products, services, employment relationships.

Right now too, there's a lot of "worst of both worlds" business models, at least in the US. I've seen grocery stores with both free parking lots and low margin gas pumps, and yet very high electric parking fees. Some of that is simply because the same grocery stores that just spent millions in becoming their own gas stations are outsourcing their chargers to third parties because they don't have to compete on margins yet, and they aren't paying attention to what the chargers are costing, and how it affects the public perception of their overall amenities just yet. I suppose we'll know when electric is finally on their radars when you can use "gas points" for electric rates.

Re: Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming

#489
post #151

Carbon tax Carbon tax Carbon tax It sucks that as BEVs chase ICEs and become more prevalent that will drop demand of oil and therefore oil will get cheaper. I only hope that the higher extraction costs of current reserves make a floor for gasoline that supply/demand curves can't go under fundamentally, and that BEVs can beat that. But a goddamn rational, common sense carbon tax would fix a whole lot of things that ar…

> It sucks that as BEVs chase ICEs and become more prevalent that will drop demand of oil and therefore oil will get cheaper. Well - that's kinda good news (if it works that way) for me and my Jeep... I'd love for there to be a real practical BEV Jeep (or similar off-road vehicle) - but the truth is, the battery tech just isn't there yet. There is no way to fit a battery pack into a vehicle the size of my 2004 TJ (wh…

100 miles is very doable with current BEV tech. A skateboard design will drop the center of gravity, can be armored better than most other designs.

Battery tech will get there. Electric motors will deliver more torque and independent torque vectoring will open up even more terrain to ruin.

Range can probably be done with a range extending generator, and PVs on the roof can charge while you camp.

But I'm not going to shed tears that BEVs don't fit the 200 mile offroad romp use case. BEVs won't come to Jeep segments until some other commercial application does it. Jeep buyers generally don't care about the environment when it comes down to it, they've been buying horribly inefficient dinosaur burners for decades and really aren't any different than Hummer buyers.

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