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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#481

Post by squiggleblaz »

repolfx wrote: post #410
ErneX wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the EU this is an internal matter, plus, most of the countries of the EU have regions with similar intentions (of secession), it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Plus new state members of the EU have to be approved by every current member IIRC.

The EU is absolutely happy to interfere with internal matters when it suits them, to a huge degree. Look at how they have been treating Poland and its reforms of its court system. Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Commission is all about "European values" and how they're going to impose penalties when a country is doing something unali…

I would've thought more countries = easier to unite Europe. Each country has more of an incentive to be united and less of an ability to separated if there's many small independent countries.

Someone wants to have a European Civil Code, and they say "but I already know the rules to trade with 30 million people". When you cut up the countries, they say "but if I want to trade with someone an hour's drive away, the rules are different - it's better to unify".

There's more boundaries where rules change, so there's more motivation to smoothe them out.

There's less power for each individual government, because their voice is 1 in 60 instead of 1 in 28. You'll quickly come to an understanding that the rules of European decision making have to be standard federal rules, rather than some compromise between federal and international rules.

The motivation for European integrationists is absolutely and solely for Catalonia and other places to become direct members of Europe.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#482

Post by rehasu »

sigotirandolas wrote: post #131
rehasu wrote: post #118

Why would anybody have the "smart idea" to put anti-government source code on a centralized source code management website? This was probably on purpose to gain some media attention...

They also have, or used to have, their own domains and servers, but those can be blocked at the (national) ISP level rather quickly. On the other hand by mixing their content in centralized websites, they need to send takedown requests to every single one of them, since they would block legitimate traffic otherwise[1]. It's basically a workaround for IP and TLS SNI blocking. Of course this is all to make it simple fo…

If I host a web server, and the only access is the ssh port, how should anybody guess that I use it to host a git repo that you and I work on together? More is not needed. Might even work on public clouds since you shouldn't really raise any attention this way.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#483

Post by yeahforsureman »

banjodeluxe wrote: post #54
zozbot234 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> developed an app that allows people to know where demonstrations are happening Sounds like a bit of welcomed transparency to me. The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand. (*Edited for consistency with newly-provided info in this HN thread.)

Yeah I agree that there's a chance that might be the case - might be outrageous misrepresentation, takedown to crackdown on the movement, etc.. But I personally decide to give the system a little trust at least at first and like to think that the Spanish authorities who ordered this will have real reasons to base their decision on - with time we'll see I guess.

With all respect, I guess you haven't been following the Catalonian affair that closely then. To me it unfortunately looks like enforcement of laws around this issue has long become politicized to the point of endangering the rule of law, fair and objective administration of justice and the protection of fundamental rights such as the freedom of speech and assembly.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#484

Post by aianus »

dcabrejas wrote: post #437
Discombulator wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? What do you think the EU should even do about this, based on which principles? To me this is entirely unclear. There is no right to secede from a country, in fact, the territory is usually part of the identity of a country, also legally speaking.

100% people talk about the catalonya issue like they should just be able to break free without understanding the first thing about the issue. It just proves that people are so easy to manipulate with propaganda-like videos that catalonya pro-independence parties put online. I wonder what they would think if it was their countries that were trying to be broken.

I’m from Canada and we let the separatists have a referendum and tried to change their minds. The referendum failed. I don’t know anyone who took it personally or wanted to invade Quebec to make them stay or violently stop the vote.

Quite frankly I find it baffling that people care so much about violently forcing provinces they don’t even live in to stay in their country.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#485

Post by JoeAltmaier »

fluffything wrote: post #183
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sentencing is a judges prerogative, yes? So draconian sentencing is not so inevitable as that?

A judge is required to act according to the law. Not following because they disagree with it is not an option on any modern democracy.

Sentencing is a judges prerogative. There can be guidelines, but that's all they are.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#486

Post by squiggleblaz »

Jare wrote: post #403
tassl wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past. Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same c…

> why do people, outside of a territory, control the political status of this territory, going against international law? Because they are not outside of, they are part of. The rest is a made up fantasy which a bunch of nationalists have used to rile people up, create a "common enemy" and a "them vs us" narrative and gain power for themselves. This process is absolutely not new and has caused terrible harm throughout…

> The democratic means for eventual independence are HARD and SLOW because they HAVE to be. You should need a lot more than a loud voice and a molotov cocktail in your hand to push more than half of your presumed co-citizens out of their country against their will.

It sounds like you're arguing that to democratically separate, using a referendum isn't sufficient. Instead, you have to have a molotov cocktail and something else - presumably heavier, more effective weapons?

What the rest of the world hears Spain saying is, Catalonia cannot separate and even asking the question and discussing the matter is a criminal offence. When people are locked up for making sure there's interest before they start negotiating, what's left isn't "the democratic means for eventual independence are hard and slow because they have to be". What's left is "there's no democratic means for eventual independence; if you want to separate, it's over my dead body". And that means war.

The democratic means to separate can only be a democratic majority vote in the territory concerned. Otherwise it is by definition not democratic. Likening Catalonia's actions to Trump and Brexit and presenting Spain as the side of the lessons of the 20th century is hilarious. Catalonia said "let's have a vote on it, oh look independence won [in a questionable referendum], let's have a discussion". Spain said "you can't have a vote on it, you can't discuss it, thanks for trying: now you'll spend a decade in prison". Spain and rSpain do not have to agree with independence to have respect in this - they just have to not lock people up for democratic expression.

Spain and the EU are losing a lot of respect in this process.

For it to be a democratic process, there must be a way for this to happen, and there must be a way for this to happen that sees Catalonia exiting even though everyone else in rSpain is unhappy about it. Yes, of course, that means Catalonia will be paying a price when exiting. Maybe they will lose some of their territory or continue to pay some taxes for a certain number of years. And that price might mean they decide not to leave at this time, democratically.

But if the price is too great, if rSpain says "we will unhappily allow you to leave but we will veto your EU membership application and close the borders", if the price is something that Catalonia could never pay, then the democratic process will still be stifled and Spain will continue to be taught the lessons of the 20th century because, as you say, the Spanish "don't fucking learn".

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#487

Post by squiggleblaz »

Jare wrote: post #394
ivalm wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catalan are not majority of Spain. They cannot themselves change the constitution, yet they do not want to stay in Spain. So it's a fake "way." The majority should not be allowed to bully the minority.

But if Catalonia secedes, the majority (they're not, but for argument's sake) of independentist catalonians will be bullying the minority of non-independentist catalonians, right? It's turtles all the way down.

> But if Catalonia secedes, the majority (they're not, but for argument's sake) of independentist catalonians

If Spain really wanted to quiet down the independence movement in Catalonia, they could actually introduce a democratic, non malapportioned voting system. Americans would be proud of the Spanish non-democratic electorates.

The Spanish have basically gone off and said "how can we make an on-paper proportional voting system repeatedly return majorities for the minority who we hate and who are destroying our country". The problem is, as always, that no politician would ever vote themself out of power, and so no-one in Spain will ever propose a democratic reapportionment.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#488

Post by dcabrejas »

aianus wrote: post #484
dcabrejas wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% people talk about the catalonya issue like they should just be able to break free without understanding the first thing about the issue. It just proves that people are so easy to manipulate with propaganda-like videos that catalonya pro-independence parties put online. I wonder what they would think if it was their countries that were trying to be broken.

I’m from Canada and we let the separatists have a referendum and tried to change their minds. The referendum failed. I don’t know anyone who took it personally or wanted to invade Quebec to make them stay or violently stop the vote. Quite frankly I find it baffling that people care so much about violently forcing provinces they don’t even live in to stay in their country.

No-one is violently forcing provinces they don't even live in to stay in their country so I'm not sure what you are insinuating there.

People were disrupting public order and doing an illegal activity (referendum) with public money. Normal people couldn't get to work or go to the doctor because people were blocking roads.

That is what police is for basically, I am glad we have police to protect us.

Maybe your constitution is different than ours, I don't tell Canada how to rule itself. I find it baffling that people think they can tell other countries how to govern themselves from so far away!

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#489

Post by dcabrejas »

filomeno wrote: post #473
dcabrejas wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable. I can give you my point of view as a Spanish person. I am not part of the goverment by any means. Just a normal citizen living in the middle of the country. The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, high…

> The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, highways, etc...) have been paid by all spaniards during many, many years. Like ways, may people from all over Spain live and work in catalunya and viceversa. It's not like it was paid only by people from outside Catalonia. In fact, the catalan people, pay taxes as well, and that money was used to fund developments outside Catalonia too. And this not only h…

No, that's just one of the reasons. Again EU and Scotland aren't a country. I don't know why people just keep comparing different things like they are the same?

Do you want to propose a solution to people who live in catalunya and don't want independence? A referendum is a stupid idea frankly, it divides sociaties between those who want to leave and those who want to say.

People in catalunya only want independence because they are richer. What happened to solidarity?

They just want to kick Spanish people out (by the way they are spanish too in spite of all their bullshit), becuase they see them as the Nazis saw the Jews.

Let's call things by what they are. We aren't going to stand by and abandon half if catalan people who don't want to lose their rights to live and work in Spain.

You can do that in other countries if you want.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#490

Post by mindB »

reallydontask wrote: post #369
mindB wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Absolutely. Companies and the individuals who make up companies should not comply with unethical laws just as people at large should not comply with unethical laws. Ethics stands above the law.

>Ethics stands above the law This is pretty naive Who decides what is ethical? I might think it's unethical to finance my government given its record of military adventures around the world. Does that mean that I'm off the hook on income tax?

>This is pretty naive

I think you may be misunderstanding me. Ethics stands above the law in that if ethics and law conflict, a person ought to do the ethical thing rather than the legal thing. It does not mean that people who disobey the law should be off the hook so long as they were obeying their own personal code of ethics.

If this view is naive, then I believe most all work in moral philosophy is naive. I don't think there are any major viewpoints that would elevate obedience to the law as being a concern higher than ethical behavior.

Do you think that the entire field of business ethics is bunk and can be reduced to the single maxim, "Follow the local law"? Is the code of ethics by which I would be required to abide[1] if I became a professional engineer an unnecessary restriction?

[1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics

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