Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.? • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#481

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #348

MarcScott wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, but you can't outlaw the maths. There's nothing stopping anyone from rolling their own encryption, using well documented algorithms. You'd need to literally outlaw Wikipedia. Hell, even one-time-pads could still be used by truly motivated bad actors that wanted to communicate securely.

"I've said this before, but you can't outlaw the maths." I don't think this is the right analogy - instead, I think a better statement would be "you can't outlaw random numbers". A random number and the ciphertext output of a secure encryption algorithm should be indistinguishable. I don't think I am being naive to think that even in our wildest dystopian nightmares there is no real path from (current jurisprudence i…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#482

Post by tehjoker » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #175

pmlnr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't pay rent with good feelings. So just keep making the world shittier. Gotta love individualist capitalism.

To paraphrase Adam Smith, nothing has helped more people more than self-interest in a free market. Raised the standard of living for billions.

The free market never has, nor never will exist. The kind of unfair distribution of scarce items to people with the most money, the creating of a competitive rather than cooperative substrate for social interaction. These things tear society apart and have always needed to be moderated whenever a market is present.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#483

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

marmaduke wrote: post #417

wcathcart wrote: post #395

We were surprised to read this story and are not aware of discussions that would force us to change our product. We believe people have a fundamental right to have private conversations. End-to-end encryption protects that right for over a billion people every day. We will always oppose government attempts to build backdoors because they would weaken the security of everyone who uses WhatsApp including governments th…

Will you have something like a warrant canary [1] to let users know in case there ever is a compromise of security? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary

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Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#484

Post by vuln » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #472

wcathcart wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will not. We are completely opposed to this. Backdoors are a horrible idea and any government who suggests them is proposing weakening the security and privacy of everyone.

Thanks for the clarity. So will WhatsApp refuse to comply, if this goes forward? And is that even possible? I do appreciate that Facebook has the resources to fight. To fight an NSL, even. But IANAL, and have no clue.

Facebook give the government this and the government in acts regulations to “protect” Facebook. I’m sure Facebook is salivating at the thought at getting even more access to your sensitive data. Once the backdoor is installed who knows who’ll have access.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#485

Post by snissn » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

wcathcart wrote: post #395

We were surprised to read this story and are not aware of discussions that would force us to change our product. We believe people have a fundamental right to have private conversations. End-to-end encryption protects that right for over a billion people every day. We will always oppose government attempts to build backdoors because they would weaken the security of everyone who uses WhatsApp including governments th…

"are not aware of discussions that would force us to change our product."

It reads like your product is already compatible with govt ease dropping

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#486

Post by blobs » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #432

blobs wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keeping safe argument from government is indeed preposterous. As if that was their mission to keep us safe. Why are they allowing our nature to be destroyed in favor of money/economy? This years heatwaves killed many thousands of people in Europe only, some estimates are in the tens of thousands. This is real deaths in 1 year, not because of terrorist attacks, no fucking backdoor will stop this. And what are they…

Was the Europe heatwave in 2019 caused by government actions?

No, not by their actions of course. It happens because of the lack of appropriate actions by them. Governments should anticipate on future events pointed out by science. And that is what they did not. All I see is business as usual.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#487

Post by buzzert » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #452

wcathcart wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do not. You don't have to take our word on this -- I wouldn't want you to. As others on this thread have pointed out it's possible enough to tear through our binaries that if we did have a backdoor it would be discovered.

> it's possible enough to tear through our binaries No, it's not "possible enough" and I strongly suspect you fully realize that. A backdoor doesn't need to be in a form of an IF statement or something comparably obvious and silly. It can be a weakly seeded PRNG that would allow a "determined party" to brute-force the key exchange in a reasonable time. That would take man-years to fish out from a binary, and that's w…

I disagree that it would take man-years to fish that out from a binary. Black hat and white hat hackers do this all the time.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#488

Post by alexilliamson » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

qroshan wrote: post #458

grawprog wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are the only ones who can change things by law, not me. I had this thought yesterday as I read about several prominent politicians in Canada, including the prime minister, actively participating in the climate 'protests' that occurred yesterday. Who were they out there protesting? Themselves? They're the ones with the power to change things. Why were they outside with signs instead of in their offices doing som…

Not all politicians have equal power. In the US, the nominations of important positions, the laws and policies are determined by 20 Senators in GOP. Those 20 senators (from Alaska, Missouri, Arkansas) are answerable to the demands of their constituents. Those people are not asking for Climate Change Policies. It has nothing to do with money, but the values and culture of the constituents. It is incredible how HN and…

It has nothing to do with money? How are the values and culture of those constituents determined, if not through vast sums of money spent on propoganda? Protecting the earth - not shitting where you eat - is an inherently sensical idea. The only way that people can align themselves against such an idea is when they are manipulated to believe it is part of a broader conspiracy to ruin their lives. It takes a lot of money.

Also, so what if the bad actors want us to believe that all politicians are the same? What if it were true that they're all the same and evil? Would it still be "incredibly stupid" to accurately assess the state of affairs?

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#489

Post by toomim » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

snissn wrote: post #485

wcathcart wrote: post #395

We were surprised to read this story and are not aware of discussions that would force us to change our product. We believe people have a fundamental right to have private conversations. End-to-end encryption protects that right for over a billion people every day. We will always oppose government attempts to build backdoors because they would weaken the security of everyone who uses WhatsApp including governments th…

"are not aware of discussions that would force us to change our product." It reads like your product is already compatible with govt ease dropping

Ha, at first I thought you were making a joke that WhatsApp could have been aware of the conversations by ... eavesdropping on the government employees who are using WhatsApp.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#490

Post by tehjoker » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 10:54 PM UTC

Just a reminder that anytime they breach communications like this, it's because they want to be able to spy on their own citizens in order to subvert and control opposition political movements. For example, climate activism, whistle blowers (e.g. Snowden, Reality Winner, the guy that talked about the Ukraine deal if it wasn't an official CIA leak), animal rights, anti-imperialists, etc.